Author Topic: LED Information  (Read 3881 times)

Offline tmsmini

LED Information
« on: June 20, 2017, 10:59:24 AM »
The links below come from the recommended parts/accessories thread, but some LED info has been posted before.
I copied these out so if someone is searching, the information might be found more readily.

Another part I highly recommend is this Phillips 1157 red LED to use for taillights.  Yeah, I know there are literally thousands of crappy automotive LED bulbs out there promising to be good, but this one is different:  It's made by a reputable company that is an OEM supplier of lighting to the automotive industry, and this LED light is fully DOT certified. Plus it is BRIGHT!
 

https://www.amazon.com/Philips-1157-Intense-Vision-light/dp/B00P2D415K?th=1


I've used these LEDs for the last 4 years without any complaints.

https://www.superbrightleds.com/moreinfo/tail-brake-turn/1157-led-bulb-dual-function-28-smd-led-tower-bay15d-retrofit-car/1644/#tab/Specifications


I added LED on one of our cars a few years ago. The running light portion stopped working and I assumed it was the switch as it had some other issues. With the switch replaced, they still don't work. I am pretty sure that with LED, you cannot just test the continuity like an old bulb. At $18- $24, I was hoping they would last longer that just a year or two. Philips are $18 for a two pack.

 Both left and right sides are out in the running light mode that I why I assumed it was the switch. Is there any way to test the bulbs?

I see where it is recommended to get the red version for the brake lights and I see Superbright has an amber version, but no amber version for the Philips.
I am guessing I just used the white version for the front last time. My bulbs have no markings on them, but i thought I got them from the Superbright site.

I see Philips has multiple types "Vision and Ultinon,", but their page doesn't make it easy to figure it out:
http://http://www.usa.philips.com/c-m-au/car-lights/signaling-and-interior-lighting/latest#filters=SINGALLING_AND_INTERIOR_LIGHTING_SU%2CFK_CAR_LED&sliders=&support=&price=&priceBoxes=&page=&layout=12.subcategory.p-grid-icon
« Last Edit: June 20, 2017, 12:03:13 PM by tmsmini »

Offline tmsmini

Re: LED Information
« Reply #1 on: June 20, 2017, 11:59:07 AM »
My problem lies somewhere else as I tested the LED lamp off the car with a Powerprobe. I thought it was ground, but the turn signal works. I have power at the socket as well, so I need to see what else is going on.

Here are the US specs for the red Philips lamp:
http://www.usa.philips.com/c-p/12836B2/vision-led-exterior-lighting/specifications
And the specs for the Superbright red LED lamp:
https://www.superbrightleds.com/moreinfo/tail-brake-turn/1157-led-bulb-dual-function-28-smd-led-tower-bay15d-retrofit-car/1644/#tab/Specifications

Offline LilDrunkenSmurf

Re: LED Information
« Reply #2 on: June 20, 2017, 12:22:10 PM »
LED's can't work as a running light AFAIK, because they have a minimum voltage.

Typically on a conventional bulb, lower voltage = lower light output, but LED's have one way diode's with a minimum voltage, which means rather than dimming, it would shut off.
In fact, most auto lights where they're both the DRL and the brake lights (or DRL + headlights), they're dual filament bulbs.

Offline tmsmini

Re: LED Information
« Reply #3 on: June 20, 2017, 12:30:26 PM »
The front lights on two of our cars are US spec sockets that use the 1157 dual filament lamps.
I need to check to make sure I replaced all the lamps in that circuit with LEDs, maybe there is a voltage drop.

Offline BruceK

Re: LED Information
« Reply #4 on: June 20, 2017, 01:44:53 PM »
LED's can't work as a running light AFAIK, because they have a minimum voltage.

What you are saying above is true only for very recent cars (like Dave's '09 MINI Clubman) that have a single filament incandescent bulb doing double duty as both the taillight and the brake light.  And it is only able to do that because the car's electrical system varies the voltage to change the intensity of the bulb.  Lower voltage = dim taillight,  higher voltage = bright brake light.

But, as you can imagine, our classic Minis don't have any of that wacky electronic voodoo going on.  The taillight and brake light wires in classic Minis always carry 12V when activated.  And the taillight/brakelamp socket for all Minis, from 1959 to 2000, always has two distinct wires going to it - one lights up the smaller, thinner filament in the 1157 bulb, and the other illuminates the bigger, thicker and brighter filament for the brake light.  When braking at night, both filaments are lit. 

As long as any LED is designed to emulate a 1157 bulb (with the correct base and two contact points) it will have two levels of brightness - one for taillight, and the other for brakes.  That's the bare minimum requirement.



« Last Edit: June 20, 2017, 02:44:54 PM by BruceK »
1988 Austin Mini
2002 MINI Cooper S
2007 Triumph Bonneville

Offline LilDrunkenSmurf

Re: LED Information
« Reply #5 on: June 20, 2017, 01:48:10 PM »
You can test continuity on an LED, but it'll only work one way, it's polarity sensitive.

Can you test the polarity of the socket? Looking at the 1157 base, the LED may expect the voltage from the pins on the bottom, but the mini may be backwards, and the switch is operating a ground instead of live.

Offline BruceK

Re: LED Information
« Reply #6 on: June 20, 2017, 02:03:24 PM »
Both left and right sides are out in the running light mode that I why I assumed it was the switch. Is there any way to test the bulbs?

The absolute easiest way is to simple install a 1157 incandescent bulb in the socket to see if it works.  If it does, you have a bad LED, or the polarity is somehow off.   If it doesn't work, then you'd need to trouble shoot the fuse, wiring, socket, etc. to determine the cause.



I see where it is recommended to get the red version for the brake lights and I see Superbright has an amber version, but no amber version for the Philips.
I am guessing I just used the white version for the front last time. My bulbs have no markings on them, but i thought I got them from the Superbright site.

I see Philips has multiple types "Vision and Ultinon,", but their page doesn't make it easy to figure it out:


The reason Phillips does not offer an amber 1157 LED bulb is because they can't do it legally (yet).   If fact, no reputable lighting manufacturer (Hella, Sylvania, Bosch, Osram, Phillips, GE, etc.), AFAIK, makes a decent amber 1157 LED bulb that is at least as bright as an incandescent amber 1157NA bulb that can pass the EU and DOT regulatory muster.   Sure, there are plenty of cheap and crappy amber 1157 LEDs for sale, but none of them are as bright as what they designed to replace.   Apparently red LEDs are easier to make the necessary legal brightness for legal approval than amber ones at this point in time.

There are front LED turnsignal lighting alternatives for our Minis that replace the whole unit. They look tempting and they are made by Wipac, so they should be good quality.  Since they are designed for UK use, they function only as a turn signal, no front running/parking light function as found on older North American classic Minis.

http://www.minispares.com/product/Classic/Electrics/Lamps/Indicators/AFU3389LED.aspx?090905&ReturnUrl=/shop/classic/Electrics/Lamps/Indicators.aspx



« Last Edit: June 20, 2017, 02:07:30 PM by BruceK »
1988 Austin Mini
2002 MINI Cooper S
2007 Triumph Bonneville

Offline MPlayle

Re: LED Information
« Reply #7 on: June 20, 2017, 03:29:51 PM »
The new BMW MINIs actually use PWM (Pulse Width Modulation) control for the lights. It is how they can also tell you when a bulb is out even without you turning on the lights. (Even more voodoo electronics.)

If your classic Mini is still positive ground, then the typical LED replacement bulb may not work.  As stated by others, LEDs are polarity dependent.  Current goes only one way through them.  The case of the light is its ground and expected to connect to negative.  On a positive earth Mini, the case would be getting connected to positive instead.  Thus the LED would not work.


Offline BruceK

Re: LED Information
« Reply #8 on: June 20, 2017, 03:37:28 PM »
And if your Mini is still Positive ground, I gotta ask why?  Originality?   Who is going to notice? Or care?

It takes 3 minutes to convert it to Negative ground.
1988 Austin Mini
2002 MINI Cooper S
2007 Triumph Bonneville

Offline tmsmini

Re: LED Information
« Reply #9 on: June 20, 2017, 03:43:33 PM »
I am negative ground and the odd thing is the lamp works for turn signals but not running lights.
I have the same problem with both sides, although I have tested only one side fully.
This is a wagon, so it has the two license plate lamps in the circuit as well as the other rear lamps. I may not have put LEDs in the license plate lamps. I need to take it all apart, so I know what I am dealing with. I have another car to set up with LED lamps and I see Pep Boys has the Philips versions in stock. I may buy a set of those and see if I have the same issue.

The ones I have for the front are white and they appear to work fine through the amber glass(just not as running lights at this time).


Offline richard1

Re: LED Information
« Reply #10 on: June 20, 2017, 06:53:54 PM »
I get everything from Superbrightleds. I bought an electronic flashing unit, but you could also put the resisters in.

Offline tmsmini

Re: LED Information
« Reply #11 on: June 20, 2017, 10:05:36 PM »
Anyone used LEDs for the early speedos?
BULB, SCREW IN, MOST INSTRUMENTS, 12 volt 2.2 watt
Part Number: C15788 ; BFS987; 2H4732; 59492; 171-000; C15788; GLB987; LLB987; SC3348

I see some posts on MGB forums that indicates Moss sells them.
http://www.mossmotors.com/Shop/ViewProducts.aspx?PlateIndexID=118414
« Last Edit: June 20, 2017, 10:52:32 PM by tmsmini »

Offline LilDrunkenSmurf

Re: LED Information
« Reply #12 on: June 21, 2017, 08:14:40 AM »
How does one convert from positive ground to negative ground, out of curiosity?

Offline richard1

Re: LED Information
« Reply #13 on: June 21, 2017, 08:33:56 AM »
Anyone used LEDs for the early speedos?
BULB, SCREW IN, MOST INSTRUMENTS, 12 volt 2.2 watt
Part Number: C15788 ; BFS987; 2H4732; 59492; 171-000; C15788; GLB987; LLB987; SC3348

I see some posts on MGB forums that indicates Moss sells them.
http://www.mossmotors.com/Shop/ViewProducts.aspx?PlateIndexID=118414


I am converting everything (need to order for my Mini and for my BMW). Since Moss has those special ones, I'd get from them. This is what the two superbright bulbs did for my Corvair


I suggest blue or green. Red is a little dull. the blue and green sort of whiten up the dull original numbering
 


Offline BruceK

Re: LED Information
« Reply #14 on: June 21, 2017, 08:40:24 AM »
How does one convert from positive ground to negative ground, out of curiosity?

Basically, you flip the battery terminal connections, flip the coil wires around, and tickle spark the generator connections.  Takes 3 minutes to do.

Here's a detailed explanation:    https://blog.simonbbc.com/classic-car-projects-and-tips/converting-a-vehicle-from-positive-earth-to-negative-earth-electronic-ignition/

1988 Austin Mini
2002 MINI Cooper S
2007 Triumph Bonneville

Offline BruceK

Re: LED Information
« Reply #15 on: June 21, 2017, 08:46:13 AM »
That Corvair dash looks great lit up like that. I'm sure that's what the Chevy designers would have wanted had the lighting tech been available back then.
« Last Edit: June 21, 2017, 08:54:25 AM by BruceK »
1988 Austin Mini
2002 MINI Cooper S
2007 Triumph Bonneville

Offline tmsmini

Re: LED Information
« Reply #16 on: June 21, 2017, 09:39:21 AM »
I think some electric gauges may need attention when switching ground.

Offline BruceK

Re: LED Information
« Reply #17 on: June 21, 2017, 09:47:41 AM »
I think some electric gauges may need attention when switching ground.

My understanding is that an amp meter will require flipping connections, but a voltmeter will not. 
1988 Austin Mini
2002 MINI Cooper S
2007 Triumph Bonneville


Offline tmsmini

Re: LED Information
« Reply #19 on: June 21, 2017, 08:49:57 PM »
I bought some LED lamps at Oreilly's. Sylvania brand, but they have a lifetime warranty.
These will go on the second wagon, but also allow me to test the other car.
Terry

PS: The Sylvania's work, so I am not sure what is up with the original ones I bought.
https://www.osram-americas.com/en-us/products/automotive/ZEVO/Pages/ZEVO-Auxiliary-RetrofitReplacements.aspx
I guess I need to get another set for the other car now and buy the instrument lamps from Moss for both cars.
« Last Edit: June 22, 2017, 11:16:25 AM by tmsmini »

Offline LilDrunkenSmurf

Re: LED Information
« Reply #20 on: June 22, 2017, 07:46:44 AM »
I forgot to mention, previous owner replaced most of the lights that I've found with LEDs. The dash is LED lit, and the interior light is LED lit, which caused me some issues, since the LED is polarity specific. I could either only use it with the door open, or the switch on, I couldn't have it both ways, as the direction of the volatage changes.

Offline tmsmini

Re: LED Information
« Reply #21 on: June 22, 2017, 10:59:41 AM »
Wired by Wilson sell a number of LED solutions for dash panels
https://www.wiredbywilson.co.uk/products-prices/

Also I saw a UK site that had a  complete replacement similar to Richard's, but I can not find it again.

Offline John Gervais

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Re: LED Information
« Reply #22 on: August 01, 2017, 10:21:19 PM »
http://www.bettercarlighting.co.uk/ sells both negative earth and positive earth bulbs.
« Last Edit: August 01, 2017, 10:23:01 PM by John Gervais »
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