Restoration-Mini

Technical Forums => Restorations => Shop Tools And Equipment => Topic started by: 94touring on April 15, 2016, 01:37:45 PM

Title: wet blasting
Post by: 94touring on April 15, 2016, 01:37:45 PM
I'm going to be trying some wetblasting.   I have a 4000psi 4gpm pressure washer I've picked out and this style wetblast kit in the vid.  Between cars, wheels, and subframes this should be a nice addition to the shop. 

Title: Re: wet blasting
Post by: MiniDave on April 15, 2016, 02:58:54 PM
I'm eager to see how it works..... 71.gif

Does it require a pressure pot or just a siphon style media hopper?
Title: Re: wet blasting
Post by: 94touring on April 15, 2016, 03:08:15 PM
Syphon but I've seen some diy using pressure pots too. 
Title: Re: wet blasting
Post by: Willie_B on April 15, 2016, 03:18:19 PM
I might need to send you a set of alloy wheels to try it on.
Title: Re: wet blasting
Post by: John Gervais on April 15, 2016, 03:19:18 PM
That looks really cool!  I can see a number of benefits - reduced likelyhood of panel warping and low dust!  Neat!   77.gif
Title: Re: wet blasting
Post by: 94touring on April 15, 2016, 03:29:20 PM
Quote from: Willie_B on April 15, 2016, 03:18:19 PM
I might need to send you a set of alloy wheels to try it on.

Absolutely.  I know the clubby wheels will get blasted and I'll respray them myself with quality paint.

Yeah less heat so panel warping risk go down and if anyone hhas ever sandblasted you know how dusty and miserable it is to do.
Title: Re: wet blasting
Post by: 94touring on April 16, 2016, 06:20:07 AM
Ordered the nozzle part.  Another nice thing is I can clean paint splattered floors like a champ now.
Title: Re: wet blasting
Post by: MiniDave on April 16, 2016, 09:04:39 AM
Are the nozzles plastic or ceramic? What media do they recommend?
Title: Re: wet blasting
Post by: 94touring on April 16, 2016, 09:30:48 AM
Carbide tip.  The media needs to be fine grade like any other sandblaster would need.  When I did ssandblasting on the other cars I'd sift play sand since it's so affordable.  I'll probably do the same now too but may setup a trapping setup to reuse as much media as possible. 
Title: Re: wet blasting
Post by: John Gervais on April 16, 2016, 06:47:18 PM
An idea - if you wet-blast in a kiddie pool, the media will settle to the bottom and then you just pour off the water.
Title: Re: wet blasting
Post by: 94touring on April 16, 2016, 07:10:20 PM
Similar to what I'm thinking but a kiddie pool is too small.  I'll use some large sheets of plastic (4mil or there's about) and create an area to trap the runoff. 
Title: Re: wet blasting
Post by: John Gervais on April 16, 2016, 07:15:53 PM
I guess you'd also need to run a magnet through it before you re-use the sand. 

Oh, and to try to keep the neighborhood cats out of it...   :D 
Title: Re: wet blasting
Post by: MPlayle on April 16, 2016, 07:31:11 PM
Would an 8 foot diameter by 18 inch deep  "kiddie pool" be too small?  Holds 565 gallons of water and is $23 through amazon:

http://www.amazon.com/Intex-Ocean-Reef-Snapset-Inflatable/dp/B00005O6TY/ref=sr_1_20/189-9864920-6359941?s=toys-and-games&ie=UTF8&qid=1460859776&sr=1-20

You could do a PVC pipe frame to hold a curtain around it for spray to run down into the pool.
Title: Re: wet blasting
Post by: 94touring on April 16, 2016, 07:49:06 PM
Needs to be probably 15x10. 
Title: Re: wet blasting
Post by: 94touring on April 17, 2016, 09:06:06 AM
Ordered the pressure washer.  I was torn between a Simpson with a Honda motor or a Generac with its own motor.  Ended up going with the Generac, it was on sale and while both rated at 4200 psi and 4gpm the Generac does have a few extra cc's and about a half horse over the Simpson.  I'm pretty sure it's all US made as well. 
Title: Re: wet blasting
Post by: snack on April 18, 2016, 01:44:20 PM
Dan, that Looks pretty cool!...But for a couple of bucks more loose all the sand and wetness with this;

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2JW4yW4mjGo (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2JW4yW4mjGo)

Steve
Title: Re: wet blasting
Post by: 94touring on April 18, 2016, 02:01:04 PM
...
Title: Re: wet blasting
Post by: Jims5543 on April 19, 2016, 05:11:50 AM
LOL!! Dr. Evil!!  I love the laser blaster, I cannot image how much that would cost.

I have to repair my pressure washer, I am no longer lending tools out to family or friends. They always come back broken and most of the time I am not told they no longer function, I have to discover it on my own the next time I go to use it.

Title: Re: wet blasting
Post by: 94touring on April 27, 2016, 03:18:18 PM
pressure washer delivery
Title: Re: wet blasting
Post by: Jims5543 on April 27, 2016, 04:49:10 PM
LOL!! That face!!!
Title: Re: wet blasting
Post by: 94touring on April 27, 2016, 05:23:31 PM
That's Justin   4.gif
Title: Re: wet blasting
Post by: 94touring on April 28, 2016, 12:04:06 PM
Well the pressure washer is a beast.  You need both feet on the ground when you pull the trigger.  The wet blast kit is tbd because it doesn't come with the part that gives it pressure.  So it just sprays water like a hose for now.  Not sure why they don't include it with the damn thing. 
Title: Re: wet blasting
Post by: 94touring on May 15, 2016, 09:16:05 AM
Hot damn this thing works great!  This was about 10 seconds worth on my first trial spray.
Title: Re: wet blasting
Post by: 94touring on May 15, 2016, 09:33:11 AM
Here's 6 mminutes of blasting beforeI ran my bucket of sand empty.  I also had to put a wedge under the dolly wheels cause it pushes the car around.  It's not very messy.  My pant legs are wet and I put on safety glasses causesome media bounces back.   
Title: Re: wet blasting
Post by: 94touring on May 15, 2016, 11:53:52 AM
So I think the key to catching sand and not making a mess in the shop is going to be hanging plastic around the frame of the garage door tracks, leaving the opening where the garage door is.  Plastic on the floor trapped half of what I went through during this test run with no plastic draped on the sides.  Did the whole side with about 100lbs of media.  Flash rust has to be tended to also.  HHaven't decided if added chemicals is best or wiping down after its sprayed with a rust inhibitor.
Title: Re: wet blasting
Post by: stan360 on May 15, 2016, 05:39:01 PM
It looks like that blaster works well.   If you were able to clear that much in just a few minutes, it should make things a bit easier.  I am guessing if you breezed through the resprayed panel with it then hopefully the thicker stuff in the boot shouldn't be to bad to deal with.
Title: Re: wet blasting
Post by: 94touring on May 15, 2016, 06:49:03 PM
The thicker stuff actually comes off easier. 
Title: Re: wet blasting
Post by: Jims5543 on May 15, 2016, 07:15:28 PM
Quote from: 94touring on May 15, 2016, 06:49:03 PM
The thicker stuff actually comes off easier.

I am guessing more to grab on to for the media, ironically this can work out well in real life too. IfyouknowwhatImean.
Title: Re: wet blasting
Post by: 94touring on May 16, 2016, 02:16:21 PM
Lowe's carries 50lb bags of fine sand that doesn't need filtered so that is a big time saver.  At 4.70 a bag it beats 10 bucks for something like blacl diamond or crushed glass.  Made a booth to capture media but it really didn't work too well.  Tomorrow will attempt to get hooks installed to hang a tarp.  I did the engine bay, inner wings, windscreen, and one side with 250lbs of sand. 
Title: Re: wet blasting
Post by: John Gervais on May 16, 2016, 02:30:20 PM
Are you able to re-use the sand?
Title: Re: wet blasting
Post by: MiniDave on May 16, 2016, 02:32:28 PM
What do you drive that can haul 250lbs or sand or more? I'm tellin you, you need a pickup truck!   ;D ;D ;D
Title: Re: wet blasting
Post by: 94touring on May 16, 2016, 03:55:59 PM
I could reuse the sand but honestly it's not worth the hassle.

Pax seat out of the mini!  Instant work vehicle.
Title: Re: wet blasting
Post by: 94touring on May 17, 2016, 04:24:25 PM
Rain gear, runber boots, and face shield are required.  Based on what I've done so far I'd say 1500lbs of media will do every nook and cranny.  Also bought this same sand the other day and it didn't require sifting but every one  of these bags had  to be sifted.  Good news is the blast nozzle can take large media, so a kitchen collender with larger openings was quick and fairly painless.  Lowes was out of the extra fine sand. 

The tarp worked great but I need an outdoor pad to do this without all the mess.  Also a pic of rust iinhibitor tthat does the trick.
Title: Re: wet blasting
Post by: MiniGene on May 19, 2016, 01:47:43 PM
Man, that set up looks handy.  Let's see it in action on some wheels!
Title: Re: wet blasting
Post by: 94touring on May 19, 2016, 02:09:52 PM
I'll hit the clubby wheels next chance I get.
Title: Re: wet blasting
Post by: 94touring on May 25, 2016, 03:07:04 PM
Quick update to how to prevent flash rust.  After you spray this phosphoric acid (diluted 3:1), you let it sit 15-30 minutes, rinse off, then immediately dry.  If you don't dry it will get rust looking streaks.  The end product after drying will have a bluish to blackish to grey coloring.  You may also note some white powder type coating, which is a byproduct of the acid doing its work.  I would recommend a quick scotch bright scuff and metal prep/rubbing alcohol  just prior to sealer primer.
Title: Re: wet blasting
Post by: Jims5543 on May 25, 2016, 06:13:44 PM
My BIL works for a water blasting company, they blast paint off concrete minus the media, it is insane.  They can also cut steel too, with water....

Paint Removal:
(http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y219/Jims5543/20160521_150128_zpsqhviwk4t.jpg)

(http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y219/Jims5543/20160520_191236_zps17xke1bt.jpg)

Cutting Steel

(http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y219/Jims5543/20160519_114428_zpsrtyyozgm.jpg)
(http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y219/Jims5543/20160519_114323_zpsamuw8won.jpg)

Can you imagine how much water pressure their machines make?

I am sure he could wipe the paint off a car like it was nothing.

Title: Re: wet blasting
Post by: 94touring on May 25, 2016, 06:18:10 PM
It would probably bend a mini in half!
Title: Re: wet blasting
Post by: MiniDave on May 25, 2016, 07:33:12 PM
Nah, it would just blow holes in it like tissue paper!
Title: Re: wet blasting
Post by: Dmulder on May 26, 2016, 04:53:17 AM
My neighbor works for an environmental company that also pressure washes industrial tanks and such. He brought a pressure washer home the other day that could cut through steel. Crazy
Title: Re: wet blasting
Post by: Jims5543 on May 27, 2016, 02:48:01 PM
Quote from: Dmulder on May 26, 2016, 04:53:17 AM
My neighbor works for an environmental company that also pressure washes industrial tanks and such. He brought a pressure washer home the other day that could cut through steel. Crazy

Yup, that is what my BIL does too, in that one steel pic you can see they opened up a silo to clean it out.

They work for the Sugar Farmers a lot in the middle of the state.  His is an effing machine my BIL. They were supposed to be at this school in Tampa for 3 weeks straight, no days off, including this weekend.

He rallied the crew and they worked from 6 a.m. to 11 p.m. all week, they are 5 days ahead of schedule.  He then approached the owner, reported they are 5 days ahead and would like to take the holiday weekend off. They are all heading home this evening and going back Tuesday morning.

He used to work for me, he is the reason I am in a hole right now, I tried like hell to keep him when the market crashed.  He was and will always be the best employee I ever had.

Title: Re: wet blasting
Post by: 94touring on June 02, 2016, 07:27:13 AM
Contacted an abrasive company locally to get my fine sand pricing to a tolerable level.  Can get 3400 pounds for $160.  To compare, that much fine sand from lowes would be $390.
Title: Re: wet blasting
Post by: MiniDave on June 02, 2016, 07:30:52 AM
Delivered? Where will you store it so that it stays dry?
Title: Re: wet blasting
Post by: 94touring on June 02, 2016, 08:57:40 AM
Delivered...Justin lol.

I'll probably just stick the palet in the corner of the shop via gantry.  The rx7 might be moving to the carport.
Title: Re: wet blasting
Post by: MiniDave on June 02, 2016, 09:55:35 AM
Oh, it's bagged, not bulk? That's a good deal then.....
Title: Re: wet blasting
Post by: 94touring on June 02, 2016, 10:07:10 AM
42 80lb bags at a time!  Save a dollar a bag buying by the palet.  Considering how much sand it takes to do an entire car, a palet a time is ideal.
Title: Re: wet blasting
Post by: MPlayle on June 02, 2016, 01:42:32 PM
Won't that make for a lot of used sand all over the shop floor?

Beach volleyball anyone?

Title: Re: wet blasting
Post by: 94touring on June 02, 2016, 01:49:49 PM
I'll be doing it outside.  I tarp off a section in the garage opening for now.
Title: Re: wet blasting
Post by: John Gervais on June 02, 2016, 05:59:31 PM
Eventually, you'll have a big pile o'sand.  Not that the local cats will see a huge litterbox, but I'd be tempted to try sifting it and re-using it.
Title: Re: wet blasting
Post by: 94touring on June 02, 2016, 06:49:49 PM
My yard will be fine with sand.  I have a country lot with a depression that collects water.  Never will I be out there sifting 2000lbs of sand.  This much I can tell you.
Title: Re: wet blasting
Post by: 94touring on June 07, 2016, 03:17:08 PM
42 bags of 80lb fine sand.
Title: Re: wet blasting
Post by: 94touring on June 08, 2016, 04:48:46 PM
Well it takes 800lbs to do a roof and complete underside.  I'm interested in a comparison if I did the same area dry if it would take less.  The up side I've found is hosing the car out makes it easy to remove sand.  The down side is the flash rusting and all the scrubbing clean after spraying the acid on.  Interestingly enough the new cill didn't flash rust but the stock metal rust instantly.
Title: Re: wet blasting
Post by: 94touring on June 08, 2016, 05:15:28 PM
4 wheels I can't imagine taking me more than 30 minutes, back and front.  I probably spent a couple hours doing the roof and underside today.  The underside went very quick compared to the roof, which had several layers to cut through. 

My thoughts were the old metal must be crap!  It was interesting to see the new cill stay shiney and everything else turning rusty.
Title: Re: wet blasting
Post by: 94touring on June 09, 2016, 04:46:21 PM
So...phosphoric acid is like crazy glue when you get it on your finger nails.  I have smurf looking nails today.  And fwiw I took the pressure washer to the primed areas to verify adhesion and nothing flys off.  This is with the blast nozzle with 4000psi behind it.  I could remove most of Vikram's paint with just the water alone, so this is comforting to know.  Last thing you want as a painter is paint peeling off down the highway!
Title: Re: wet blasting
Post by: TDA on July 26, 2016, 11:02:30 AM
Hello,
I am new on this forum.  I have been a "lurker" in the past but now am registered and I am interested in you opinion of your wet blasting setup.  Are you satisfied with the results?  Did you ever come up with a better solution to the flash rusting?

I have done a little internet research and was wondering if you know anything about a product called Holdtight. Per their web site description, "HoldTight® is a wet blasting additive that decreases the water's surface tension, allowing it to get into the pores of the surface and remove ALL contamination, including salts, acids, abrasives, light oils, and greases. HoldTight® leaves behind zero unwanted residue, and evaporates with the water, providing a surface that is thoroughly clean and ready for a tightly adhered coating bond for up to 72 hours." and  "HoldTight® is safe and effective on a wide variety of surfaces, delivering superior surface preparation, with proven results on land, at sea, on storage tanks, on bridges, on oil rigs and even for specialty projects like restoring vintage cars."

Let me know if you know anything, positive or negative about this type of product.  If it is effective it seems like it would be easier that the Phosphoric acid scrubbing/wipe down.

Thanks!   
Title: Re: wet blasting
Post by: 94touring on July 26, 2016, 01:28:03 PM
I did look up a couple products like you describe but haven't tested them.  Spraying with the phosphoric solution and wiping down hasn't been too bad honestly.  All in all I'm very pleased with the setup.  Be ready to go through tons of sand though.
Title: Re: wet blasting
Post by: Nicholasupton on July 26, 2016, 01:48:35 PM
As someone with a big setup (look up MMLJ dustless blasting) I can vouch for the Holdtight working very well, and is PPG approved undercoat for epoxy primers. I use it during the process, and then once more during the rinse out phase. After blowing the body dry inside and out I can leave it indoors for a few weeks with only flash rust occurring where someone's bare hand touches it.
Title: Re: wet blasting
Post by: MiniDave on July 26, 2016, 03:59:52 PM
Welcome to the forum, TDA - since I'm in KC to I wonder if we've crossed paths?

I'm MiniDave on the KC forum too........
Title: Re: wet blasting
Post by: TDA on July 28, 2016, 02:30:32 PM
Yes Dave, we met at the 2015 KC All British car show.  My brother Jim had his yellow race mini and red street car at the event.
Title: Re: wet blasting
Post by: MiniDave on July 28, 2016, 03:01:51 PM
OK, now I know who you are!  ;D
Title: Re: wet blasting
Post by: 94touring on November 06, 2016, 10:55:56 AM
Just bought a 5 gallon bucket of hold tight.  I hope this stuff is rust magic.
Title: Re: wet blasting
Post by: TDA on November 11, 2016, 11:40:02 AM
Please be sure to let us know how well it works.

Thanks!
Title: Re: wet blasting
Post by: 94touring on November 17, 2016, 11:12:56 AM
Ok the verdict is in!  The best combo seems to be wet blasting with plain water, then giving it a quick spray with phosphoric acid, then rinse off with the lock tight.  I bought a garden sprayer to easily monitor the amount of lock tight being sprayed.  This method uses the least amount of the stuff which is good since it's so damn expensive. Here are 2 doors.  One of them is not treated on one half to note the difference.
Title: Re: wet blasting
Post by: MiniDave on November 17, 2016, 11:20:04 AM
Cool, so that will save a lot of sanding and re-prepping?
Title: Re: wet blasting
Post by: 94touring on November 17, 2016, 11:21:48 AM
Yeah it cuts down an extra step or two of lots of tedius cleaning.  Well worth it.
Title: Re: wet blasting
Post by: 94touring on November 21, 2016, 06:35:43 AM
I'll have to grab a picture when I get home but I fabbed up a shorter wand to make blasting easier.  The current 30" wand is really too long and makes it tricky in some spots plus tires your arms out.  I put together a little 6 incher to plug the blast nozzle into. 
Title: Re: wet blasting
Post by: 94touring on November 23, 2016, 09:01:03 AM
Here's a pic of the extension.
Title: Re: wet blasting
Post by: MiniDave on November 23, 2016, 09:02:58 AM
Cool, what's the little wingnut for?
Title: Re: wet blasting
Post by: 94touring on November 23, 2016, 11:35:43 AM
The wingnut makes pulling out the piece that has the 0 degree nozzle easy, if it gets sand in it.
Title: Re: wet blasting
Post by: 94touring on December 06, 2016, 11:44:21 AM
Updates.  The short wand didnt work, guessing a loss of pressure due to changes in inner diameter of the pipe.  But good news is it only takes a quart of the hold tight to rinse the car off after giving it a phosphate bath.
Title: Re: wet blasting
Post by: Lone Star Mini on October 21, 2017, 05:49:44 PM
Dan,   Without knowing how long you've had the kit nor how many jobs you have done with it, you recommend and I'm curious how well it worked with the various mini parts (doors, boot, bonnet, etc...).  Having never blasted anything, I've been reading any/all that I can find.  Loads of people warn against warping, not using sand, etc..etc.  Then too, directly after blasting, is it necessary to treat with rust inhibitor like you did on your doors?  For me, it's a nice tool expense on compressor and kit...  you are dealt with the exact project that I'm doing so I must rather trust your advice over the thousands of other experts out there..
Title: Re: wet blasting
Post by: 94touring on October 21, 2017, 06:02:22 PM
I've done a few shells now and several subframes with it.  If you point it directly at a flat piece of thin sheet metal an inch away, it will damage it. Angled 45 degrees a foot or more away is the ticket. You can saw trees in half with this thing.  You will want to use a rust inhibitor like I show, because it will flash rust within minutes.
Title: Re: wet blasting
Post by: Lone Star Mini on October 21, 2017, 08:48:23 PM
Ok,  I'm putting this on the 'wish list'.. did you ever get the shorter gun designed to work well?  I can see how having the long arm gun will not be able to get into tight places like the boot area...
Title: Re: wet blasting
Post by: 94touring on October 21, 2017, 09:37:53 PM
Never got the stubby one to work but bought an 18 inch wand that did the trick.
Title: Re: wet blasting
Post by: Lone Star Mini on October 22, 2017, 06:27:14 PM
Dan,  based on the description, do you think this 12" wand will work well enough (attached link) with the kit?

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0053GIK8A/_encoding=UTF8?coliid=I2Y8ORI6QK6L3I&colid=10MDAV8W26KBZ
Title: Re: wet blasting
Post by: 94touring on October 22, 2017, 08:00:26 PM
Yeah it should. Short is definitely where it's at.