Then I broke down (74 mini mild refurb)

Started by 94touring, May 26, 2015, 11:33:03 PM

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MiniGene

The look you're going for is dead sexy!  I'm intrigued by the discussion of how shaving the weight of the wheels will make the mini feel lighter--can't wait to see what you end up doing.

Also, on the subject of lightened flywheels, how practical are they for a road car?

94touring

Depends on the flywheel.  Personally I won't do anything race flywheel and clutch related.  Too much of a pita to drive.  I've always gone with sprung puck clutches with heavy duty pressure plates capable of keeping up and the lightest "street" flywheel to match.  It's very noticeable yet easy enough to drive without hopping and stalling at red lights.


Jims5543

Quote from: 94touring on January 15, 2018, 10:22:31 PM
Interesting article.

https://mbworld.org/forums/c63-amg-w204/432257-dyno-runs-effects-wheel-tire-weights-wheel-horsepower.html#ixzz3RDEtUMI7

There used to be a chart, I cannot find it, it related to E30 BMW's and the M20 engine and showed how much HP the lightened flywheel freed up.

Those are the key words "Freed Up Horsepower" and it will vary with which gear you are in.  IIRC when we did my sons E30 years ago, it freed up 60HP in 1st gear, 35 in 2nd and it went down from there.  I will say this, driving the car before and after that flywheel install you felt the difference with your ass dyno. The throttle response was much better and acceleration in the low gears was vastly improved.

When I had my 2003 R53 Mini, I swapped out the heavy ass 17" Mini "Lights" rims and run flats for a set of 16" Kosai K1's with Falken Azenis tires, the transformation of the car was remarkable, it braked better and accelerated much quicker it was like I added another 30 HP to the car, because I freed up power wasted on rotating heavy rims and tires and was able to use it for acceleration.  After I felt that revelation I preached that gospel to any Mini owner that would listen.

Lightened Flywheel  + Light rims = a big change in any car.
Life should not be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside in a cloud of smoke, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming "Wow! What a Ride! -Hunter S. Thompson

94touring

#129
Had to order a few odds and ends for the 66 S build, so tossed im some things for the 74.  I've been running around on twin leading drums since I've owned the car.  Aside from disliking adjusting them every so often I need to upgrade to disc regardless with the new engine.  I have a brand new set of 7.5 calipers but since I'm going the extreme performance route on this car now, I opted for some minisport 4 pot calipers.  Also went with high carbon disc as well as their lightened drive flanges.  The goal here being less unsprung weight in both the calipers and flanges, as well as a bit less rotational weight with the flanges.  Plus better and more even braking action.  I do intend to use scales to compare my findings.

I've been thinking about other various ways to reduce weight affordably.  Obviously spare wheel and speakers will be tossed out.  Not going crazy and stripping the carpet and seats, but found some nicely priced polycarbonate windows.  I have a slider window door conversion I'm mulling over and this would compliment that. The door conversion cuts off 60lbs! Plus I can get these tinted/greyed as an option at the same time.

http://www.acwmotorsportplastics.co.uk/mini-classic-mk3-up.html

Willie_B

I have a set of fiberglass skinned regular metal frame doors. As thick as the glass is I don't think is any weight savings there though.

94touring

Quote from: Willie_B on January 22, 2018, 08:29:39 AM
I have a set of fiberglass skinned regular metal frame doors. As thick as the glass is I don't think is any weight savings there though.

I'm looking at this, except doing it myself.  I have been reading where people have done it themselves with good results.  I have a spare trash door to test with before I go hacking into mine.  As much as I dislike sliders, I think I'm making the jump.  I may just make them easy to remove and toss them in the back seat when I want to have my arm out the window.


http://www.minidoor.co.uk/streetfighter.html

94touring

#132
Some of my lightweight parts came in, the minisport alloy 4 pots and alloy drive flanges.  Tossed them on the scale to confirm claimed weights and to compare to stock.  I'm keeping a record of total weight loss, plus unsprung and rotation weight loss.  What we have is stock 7.5 calipers weighing in at 11.74lbs for the pair and drive flanges at 6.5lbs per pair.  The alloy units are 5lbs for the pair of 4 pots and 1.78lbs for the pair of drive flanges.  A total loss of approximately 11.5lbs unsprung weight for the front suspension.  The goal being unsprung weight making the car handle and react better.  Adding in the race tires and wheels, that would bump it up to about 20lbs of unsprung weight loss just on the front, with 11.25 being rotational weight loss.  The tires and wheels being more of a factor as the weight is further from the center than the drive flanges.  My flywheel is 4lbs lighter than stock.  Minispares has a formula and explanation of flywheel effect on a cars performance.  After showing their math they go on to say for every 1lb removed from the flywheel, the engine sees 11.22lbs less.  This is on a 3.44 gear set.  I searched the entire world wide intrawebs looking for wheel and tire formulas based on width and diameter but came up empty handed.  General consensus on the conservative end was in the 3-4lb neighborhood for wheels and tires, less for disc, less for drive flanges, and even less for axles and drive shafts.  So what I think I have so far then would be 44.88 less weight on the engine for the flywheels, and 26lbs less on the engine for the wheel and tire combo (at a factor of 3lbs and skipped drive flange) on the front, with another 11.5lbs of just dead weight gone.  So roughly 82lbs of less weight on the car thus far, front end only.       



Willie_B

I should start building subframes for the moke. What is the cost difference between the lighter parts and something closer to stock? Gotta make the moke more sporty!

94touring

#134
Quote from: Willie_B on February 03, 2018, 12:11:35 PM
I should start building subframes for the moke. What is the cost difference between the lighter parts and something closer to stock? Gotta make the moke more sporty!

This has been my dilemma.  Cost vs stock vs is it really worth it.  I think the key is doing several items to actually feel a difference.  One pair of drive flanges wouldn't be noticeable.  Combine it with several items and you're onto something.  I have brand new 7.5 calipers on the shelf along with disc and drive flanges, which are now destined to the pickup suspension build.  The kad 4 pots were too expensive for my blood.  The minisport 4 pots however while expensive, were worth it to me since I'm turning this into a pure fast road car at this point.  More even braking in combination with less unsprung weight.  The drive flanges I needed eventually for one of my builds, so spent the extra for the light pair, which is a 2fer since you lose unsprung weight and the rotational weight, while not as much as say the wheels, does have an impact.  For the rear suspension I sold off my stock pair of radius arms to the 66 restore since he went wet to dry.  A new pair of dry arms aren't exactly cheap.  I can always search around and find a used pair for cheap, but decided for a little extra I can buy those fancy kad rear alloy arms and shave off a lot of unsprung weight.  Then I started thinking...well I need all new rear brakes since what I have is rusted and total crap.  A pair of new everything on the rear is a bit pricey but not horrible, so what if I just spent extra for kad rear disc.  You can see where this gets out of hand.  Now I'll have shaved 30lbs straight up between the rear arms and disc, not to mention that drums have a ton of rotation weight and the kad disc have about 0lbs to factor in.  Surely a good performance gain, but a lot of money... $1400 after the exchange rate right now?? As far as braking goes, rear disc are kind of "dumb" to do, since the rear of a mini doesn't need to brake much at all.  In fact you can't or you'll spin out!  But since I'm having to buy all new anyways, what's a little more if you gain a lot overall?  You could do alloy rear hubs and minifins however.  I also like the fact that disc are zero maintenance aside from changing pads once in a blue moon.  I've had to adjust my front and rear drums so many times on this car it's insane.  Couldn't justify the alloy front hubs.  If they rotated, then maybe for the price minisport wanted.  Though they do come with bearings and metro ball joints.  I need wheels for something too.  So I could spend 400 pounds or so on a set of 4 wheels and tires, or splurge and spend 600 pounds on the ultra light wheels from force racing.  12lbs total unsprung times 3lbs rotational factor for 36lbs total engine weight loss.  Plus they look cool.  Other wheels go on the truck or back on this car for a long non sporty drive.  My main goal is knocking off 250-300lbs from the car "affordably".  As light as a mini or your moke is, that is a significant gain in performance.  I have several more items not suspension related I haven't even gotten to yet. 

94touring

While I'm thinking about it, I've decided to take out the 3.1 final drive and put in the 3.44.  I will need to get my blowed up 998 out and yank the gears.  I was a bit thoughtless when I had Dave building the engine and let the centra oil pickup escape by me, and I am thinking it's probably best to tear back into it and add that.  Interesting tid bit on the tires:  Aside from being a small amount less in weight, they are also approximately .7 inches less in diameter.  This will of course effect the final drive gearing.  Take 19.3 diameter of an 008, divide by 18.6 for the race tires, then multiply by 3.44. You get a new final drive of 3.57. 

MiniDave

#136
Add the cross pin diff for strength because with the lower gears, hot cam and head and stickier tires you're gonna generate a lot more torque.....do it all at once. I have a set of 3:44's I'm not using, they came out of Buzz so you don't have to tear down the 998 box first, just saying....I still think that's what broke in the 998 gearbox - the spyder gears.
Complete failure at retirement

1989 Cooper Racing Green
2009 Clubman S
2014 Audi Allroad

94touring

Quote from: MiniDave on February 03, 2018, 01:35:46 PM
Add the cross pin diff for strength because with the lower gears, hot cam and head and stickier tires you're gonna generate a lot more torque.....do it all at once. I have a set of 3:44's I'm not using, they came out of Buzz so you don't have to tear down the 998 box first, just saying....I still think that's what broke in the 998 gearbox - the spyder gears.

I'm almost dead positive of that too.  We'll plan on that then, much easier!  Need to get to the shop and see if I have a x pin in that one parts bin. 

94touring

Onto more weight savings.  Taking out the spare tire, wooden boot panel covered in carpet that sits over the spare, and the factory jack.  Total weight was 29.5lbs.  I've found some light weight batteries, both in Braille and Deka.  Leaning towards some of the Dekas since cca's are adequate and price is $100 give or take.  Old battery weighed in at 30lbs, while what I'm looking into is 14lbs.  They have some as low as 6lbs but then you risk having reliability issues.  Anyhow, 45.5lb reduction in those items.

MiniDave

That's significant weight savings.....about 100lbs now?
Complete failure at retirement

1989 Cooper Racing Green
2009 Clubman S
2014 Audi Allroad

gr8kornholio

That's getting the "junk" out of the trunk  ;D or in this case the boot.
I am the GR8KORNHOLIO! Are you threatening me?

Saussie Aussie 1965 Australian MK1 Mini.
"Beavis" - 07 MY/MY MCS, B/MY Konig Daylites, JCW sideskirts, TSW springs, TSW lower rear control arms -- Exploring the country with new friends since 11/09.

94touring

Quote from: MiniDave on February 05, 2018, 11:29:14 AM
That's significant weight savings.....about 100lbs now?

Factoring in rotational values, 127lbs.  30lbs yet to go on rear suspension, 60lbs on the door conversion, and then whatever the glass comes out to be. Plus speakers and a few other odds and ends.

94touring


BruceK

#143
Have you considered perhaps putting the Mini on a truck scale when finished to compare against your weight saving tally?
1988 Austin Mini
2002 MINI Cooper S
1992 Toyota LiteAce (JDM)
1997 Jeep Wrangler Sahara

94touring

Quote from: BruceK on February 05, 2018, 02:14:56 PM
Have you considered perhaps putting the Mini on a truck scale when finished to compare against your weight saving tally?

I plan to weigh it after.  Of course not a before and after, but an after. 

94touring

I've begun to organize and tally up parts for the build.  The subframes that are being pulled off the car will be cleaned up and built for the pickup.  In fact the truinions on this rear subby go to the truck as well.  Hopefully placing a big order in a couple weeks.  77.gif

MiniDave

I'm excited to see you working on one of your own cars for a change! That has to be fun!
Complete failure at retirement

1989 Cooper Racing Green
2009 Clubman S
2014 Audi Allroad

94touring

Quote from: MiniDave on February 06, 2018, 03:06:32 PM
I'm excited to see you working on one of your own cars for a change! That has to be fun!

Lol yeah it's a nice change of pace!  I've had so much practice working on everyone else for the past decade that I've gotten good at this lol.

94touring

Minispares has a universal heater for about $170.  Reading some writeups it's very compact and puts out a ton of heat.  Also 7lbs lighter. Considering mine rattles and spits out rust, may be worthwhile.

MiniGene

Have you thought of looking at the products on DSN Classics?  http://www.dsnclassics.co.uk/retrosport-shop/

They have rear subframe mounting trunnions that are alloy and lighter than original.  They have lots of nice looking stuff.