Author Topic: Minis For Sale on BAT  (Read 31906 times)

Offline BruceK

Re: Minis For Sale on BAT
« Reply #475 on: December 13, 2017, 09:12:27 PM »
Well now there is a photo of the VIN plate (painted over), so I was concerned about nothing. 
1988 Austin Mini
2002 MINI Cooper S
2007 Triumph Bonneville

Offline Jimini II

Re: Minis For Sale on BAT
« Reply #476 on: December 15, 2017, 12:59:03 PM »
I was questioning the look of the body number not the authenticity of it more the fact that it was flush with the front panel and should have been spot welded on top of it. Well the owner took a sander to it and it appears as i thought to have been filled in and smoothed out at some point in it's life why who knows. The owner also took a picture underneath where the body number attaches and it looks factory.
There are so many fake S re bodied cars out there you have  to be careful but this one looks to be 100% Cooper S unlike  another S that sold and was re bodied but never mentioned during the sale.

Offline BruceK

Re: Minis For Sale on BAT
« Reply #477 on: December 19, 2017, 02:40:24 PM »
The no-reserve tatty Mk. I Cooper S just sold for $26,750.   

That's pretty high in my opinion for a car that would conservatively need at least another $15K to $20K in parts, and labor, and paint to restore to its original form.  Perhaps more.   

And then everyone would complain the finished result was not really original.   ;D

Sounded like the seller was getting pretty nervous in recent days about the decision go offer it at no-reserve.  But I think it worked out well for him in the end. 
1988 Austin Mini
2002 MINI Cooper S
2007 Triumph Bonneville

Offline MiniDave

Re: Minis For Sale on BAT
« Reply #478 on: December 19, 2017, 02:54:21 PM »
Wow.......I guess it worked out OK!

Didn't that nice almond green car bring about that same money, and it was a nice, running, driving car!
1989 Cooper Racing Green
2009 Clubman S
1969 Jaguar XK-E FHC
2004 Audi Allroad 2.7 TT

Offline BruceK

Re: Minis For Sale on BAT
« Reply #479 on: December 19, 2017, 06:02:31 PM »
Yeah.  I’d say there was about a $20K premium based upon the Cooper S “mystique”.

If that was a bitsa Mini in that same condition, say a Mk. I with a 1275, it would struggle to make $10K. 

I say we are heading down the same inexplicable path that prices of air-cooled Porsches have taken in the past several years.
« Last Edit: December 19, 2017, 09:09:48 PM by BruceK »
1988 Austin Mini
2002 MINI Cooper S
2007 Triumph Bonneville

Offline MiniDave

Re: Minis For Sale on BAT
« Reply #480 on: December 19, 2017, 09:58:34 PM »
Yep....they really took me to task over my 970 comment......of course, I had it dead wrong too. Shows what I know!   ;D
1989 Cooper Racing Green
2009 Clubman S
1969 Jaguar XK-E FHC
2004 Audi Allroad 2.7 TT

Offline BruceK

Re: Minis For Sale on BAT
« Reply #481 on: December 19, 2017, 10:13:49 PM »
And like clockwork, there's now another Mini on BaT. 

And it is another Mk. I Cooper S.  At least it used to be one.  It has moved far from what it once was and is now a real bitsa Mini with almost nothing remaining the same on the car. 

If it was a plain old Mini it might be worth $8K on a good day.  It will be interesting to see what premium is paid for it since it started life as a Cooper S.   Because, like the last Cooper S on BaT, this one would take at least $15K-$20K to return it to 'stock'. 

Very weirdly it has a Heritage certificate indicating it is an Austin, but the VIN starts with a K as used for Morris Coopers.  Strange.

https://bringatrailer.com/listing/1966-morris-mini-cooper-s-italian-delivery/






1988 Austin Mini
2002 MINI Cooper S
2007 Triumph Bonneville

Offline MiniDave

Re: Minis For Sale on BAT
« Reply #482 on: December 19, 2017, 10:48:51 PM »
Bring a trailer,  indeed.....
1989 Cooper Racing Green
2009 Clubman S
1969 Jaguar XK-E FHC
2004 Audi Allroad 2.7 TT

Offline BruceK

Re: Minis For Sale on BAT
« Reply #483 on: December 20, 2017, 05:51:39 AM »
I’ve got a strange feeling this auction might be canceled before it completes...
1988 Austin Mini
2002 MINI Cooper S
2007 Triumph Bonneville

Offline MiniDave

Re: Minis For Sale on BAT
« Reply #484 on: December 20, 2017, 10:07:18 AM »
Yeah, it's not a problem to sell a car with a changed vin tag (at least here in the middle country), but at least be honest about it.......you and the other experts have pretty much sussed this one out.....if he doesn't come clean I agree, it should be cancelled.

Trying to sell a Mk2/3 Inno is OK, with prices going the way they are just don't try to call it a Mk1 Cooper S, you'll get caught every time on BaT!   ;D

My problem with BaT these days is how many of the cars are showing up again after a year or less of ownership, it's starting to look like Mecum, with the same few guys trading the cars and ratcheting up the value
« Last Edit: December 20, 2017, 10:10:55 AM by MiniDave »
1989 Cooper Racing Green
2009 Clubman S
1969 Jaguar XK-E FHC
2004 Audi Allroad 2.7 TT

Offline BruceK

Re: Minis For Sale on BAT
« Reply #485 on: December 20, 2017, 01:53:51 PM »
With nearly all evidence pointing to a re-VIN of an Mk II Innocenti Mini, the seller still maintains it's a real Cooper S that just happens to have been converted to an Innocenti dash, heater, switches, large Innocenti pedals including special floor-mounted gas pedal, steering column with ignition switch, mirror, seat belts, complete Innocenti wiring system, wiper motor, dual-circuit master brake cylinder, steering wheel, washer bottle, brake booster, Innocenti boot lid and badging, Innocenti front indicator lenses and side repeater lenses, unique Innocenti sliding glass doors with forward-mounted door pulls, Innocenti oil cooler, Mk. II style rear lights, and no evidence it was ever a Hydrolastic car, or had a boot board.

1988 Austin Mini
2002 MINI Cooper S
2007 Triumph Bonneville

Offline MiniDave

Re: Minis For Sale on BAT
« Reply #486 on: December 20, 2017, 02:04:39 PM »
Yeah........right!  ;D

If the tail lights for example were "upgraded" to the MkII style, wouldn't there be evidence of that in those rear panels - at least visible from the inside? I love how he says the correct panels are included if someone wants to change them back..... ::)
« Last Edit: December 20, 2017, 02:10:29 PM by MiniDave »
1989 Cooper Racing Green
2009 Clubman S
1969 Jaguar XK-E FHC
2004 Audi Allroad 2.7 TT

Offline velopackrat

Re: Minis For Sale on BAT
« Reply #487 on: December 20, 2017, 04:01:29 PM »
Agreed,  this one is a messy riddle. 

Bruce, take another look at the pics beneath the shell by the rear sub frame.  Did all Mk 1/2's have those "hydro tabs" welded underneath?  I was under the impression only hydro cars had them but I don't know with certainty.  Looks like the battery cable was routed where the right side hydro pipes would have been.

BTW, I've made the changes to my car that you suggested:)  Hubcaps, choke cable, removed switch extension and shifter extension.  Still trying to get up the courage to go forward but plan to do so in a month or two.

Chris

Offline BruceK

Re: Minis For Sale on BAT
« Reply #488 on: December 20, 2017, 05:30:13 PM »
Agreed,  this one is a messy riddle. 

Bruce, take another look at the pics beneath the shell by the rear sub frame.  Did all Mk 1/2's have those "hydro tabs" welded underneath?  I was under the impression only hydro cars had them but I don't know with certainty.  Looks like the battery cable was routed where the right side hydro pipes would have been.

BTW, I've made the changes to my car that you suggested:)  Hubcaps, choke cable, removed switch extension and shifter extension.  Still trying to get up the courage to go forward but plan to do so in a month or two.

Chris

Hi Chris.  Good eye.  I missed those tabs - so it does look like a hydrolastic shell.  And I can see a glimpse of a boot board support in the shot of the taillight aperture.  More mystery and contradiction. 


Lot's of confusion and misdirection and puzzles on this Mini (whether intentional or not).  Nothing like your Cooper S which I'm sure will receive a much less contentious reception from the assembled masses should you decide to put it on BaT.

1988 Austin Mini
2002 MINI Cooper S
2007 Triumph Bonneville

Offline MPlayle

Re: Minis For Sale on BAT
« Reply #489 on: December 20, 2017, 09:31:07 PM »
A few of things to keep in mind: When were the Inno parts added?  Where did the car supposedly come from? (Italy)  What might the "upgrade" fad of that day entailed doing to your Mini?

<Rant>
The shell has a number of clear indicators of having started out as a non-Inno (or CKD) Cooper-S (boot board mounts, right hand tank factory mounts, hydro mounts).

The Inno 6-gauge cluster was available as an aftermarket upgrade back in the 70's and 80's.  The "upgrade fashions were vastly different back then versus what they are now.

Got your boot lid damaged and want/prefer the Inno look, buy a replacement Inno bootlid and mount.  What about those folks today that like the carbon fiber stuff?  Does swapping to that suddenly make the car no longer what it started as?  What about liking the Aussie wind-up window doors that fit the UK external hinge Minis - such as the pickup and Van?  (For a short while I owned a later year UK pickup that had been "upgraded" by the previous owner to Aussie doors - did that suddenly make it an Aussie pickup?  Bruce may also know of that pickup as it used to be Skip's and is now Jim's in Florida.)

Yes, someone at some point in time went to a lot of effort to turn their Mini (not caring that it was an 'S' and probably not expecting that to mean much of anything at the time) into an attempted Inno clone.  My guess is the "cloning" effort was done a long time ago when it was thought to be just another Mini.  BMHT is not infallible and may have messed up the Austin-vs-Morris bit.  In today's Mini community, it seems the preference has shifted to demanding originality and proof and it is showing its bad side on this auction.  The seller seems to be doing a decent job of finding the details on the car to support the original claim of model, yet folks are being real adamant the BAT take down the listing.

The owner seem to be admiting, it was once a Cooper-S, but is now a "bitsa" Inno clone.  Why can't that be accepted?

<End Rant>

PS> My Moke's original rear subframe had hydro mounts on the cross members - common component in assembling the rear subframes.  The bag/cone seats were different, but the rest of the basic subframe was common.  The replacement rear subframe actually still has part of the hydro mounts on the front cross member, but lacks the valve mounts on the rear cross member.


Offline velopackrat

Re: Minis For Sale on BAT
« Reply #490 on: December 21, 2017, 10:12:21 AM »
Michael, Bruce,

Hey, I'm with you on this.  BaT posters seem to be a nasty lot.  And they state B.S. as if it were fact.  In regard to this car, what are guys seeing in those photos that identifies the rear glass as Mk2?  Not to doubt them bacause I'm asking more for my own understanding.  It looks like Mk1 rear glass to me.  Doors?  Mk1.  And were these "improvements" done recently?  No, of course not.  They were done long ago.  And you said it, a Mini heads off to Italy where an owner maybe wanted to update his car to modern spec?  It's a riddle.  But so many of them are.  If only we all could stumble upon an unmolested original S in a barn down the block.

Offline MiniDave

Re: Minis For Sale on BAT
« Reply #491 on: December 21, 2017, 10:21:04 AM »
Well, it could also work to the advantage of the ultimate buyer.....since this is a no reserve auction it may go pretty cheaply. But IMHO, it should anyway as it's just a conglomeration of parts, and making it into something worth big bux would take BIG BUX, but making it into a worthwhile Mini wouldn't be any worse than any other Mini that needed pretty much everything.......paint, interior, rust repairs, engine/trans build, brakes and on and on.....so what's it worth then?

Not much......to me.
1989 Cooper Racing Green
2009 Clubman S
1969 Jaguar XK-E FHC
2004 Audi Allroad 2.7 TT

Offline BruceK

Re: Minis For Sale on BAT
« Reply #492 on: December 21, 2017, 10:41:17 AM »


 In regard to this car, what are guys seeing in those photos that identifies the rear glass as Mk2?  Not to doubt them bacause I'm asking more for my own understanding.  It looks like Mk1 rear glass to me. 

Some observers are seeing the back window as being several inches wider than a Mk. I rear window, so the Mk. II style.  Personally, I can't tell.

Doors?  Mk1. 

Well, the doors have external hinges and sliding windows.  So Mk. I or Mk. II.   But it's not that simple since these are Innocenti doors with a interior door latch mounted up forward toward the dash similar to a door with a rollup window.   

This car may very well have started life back in 1966 as a genuine Mk. I Morris Cooper S, but over the past 51 years it's gone through some huge changes and it is so far removed now from a Cooper S it almost doesn't matter.   It's a now a non-running, incomplete bitsa car of indeterminate orgins, dressed up as an Italian Mini with some pretty big issues including a state title that does not agree with the car's VIN plate in make, model year, or even full VIN numbering. 

What is telling, in my opinion, is the way little bits of information and perhaps some truth are slowly dribbling out, bit by bit, from the seller.  I get the feeling he thought the auction process was going to be smooth sailing and perhaps it wasn't too important to represent all new knew about the car at the start of the auction?

The cynic in me says the value in the auction is in the Cooper S VIN which could be used as a recipe to build a Cooper S clone, and the VIN just happens to be offered along with a mish-mashed blue parts car and an engine.   But the BMIHT certificate doesn't match the VIN, and the title doesn't match the VIN either. 



« Last Edit: December 21, 2017, 10:49:14 AM by BruceK »
1988 Austin Mini
2002 MINI Cooper S
2007 Triumph Bonneville

Offline MPlayle

Re: Minis For Sale on BAT
« Reply #493 on: December 21, 2017, 11:45:47 AM »
I can see the issues both ways.  It has some remaining characteristics that give it a "chance" at real value, but also suffers all of the drawbacks of a serious "bitsa" project car.

Do I think it is worth true vintage 'S' prices?  No.  As Bruce and Dave say, it is now a conglomeration of parts somewhere between a vintage 'S' and a later Inno Cooper clone.

Do I think it deserves all the "hostile" criticizing and demands for pulling the listing?  No.  Honest, civil critiquing is proper but "slamming" is not.

Should the seller have provided better open disclosure from the start?  Yes.  Doing so would have probably avoided much of the "slamming".


Offline BruceK

Re: Minis For Sale on BAT
« Reply #494 on: December 21, 2017, 02:31:34 PM »

Should the seller have provided better open disclosure from the start?  Yes.  Doing so would have probably avoided much of the "slamming".

Yes, it would have.  By not being upfront, it set that tone that the car was not being accurately represented.  In fact, the auction was originally titled as being for an Austin with references to Austin in the listing text, hence the first several comments pointing out it was a Morris VIN. It's my understanding that the Seller has final approval on the BaT auction text prior to going 'live', so that was blessed by the seller before the auction started.  (The auction references to Austin have since been removed). 

But once the die was cast that things were not as they were said to be, new information has been met with a great deal of skepticism.  And there is a snowball effect as inconsistencies build and omitted information is later revealed.   For example, the seller finally indicated that the state title is for a different make car (Austin vs. Morris), for a different year (1967 vs. 1966), and only lists six of the 12 characters on the VIN plate.    A Seller does not engender himself to potential buyers by withholding significant information like that. 

Once the auction audience feels fair play has not be observed and the car might not be represented accurately, they react.  Some nicer than others.

« Last Edit: December 21, 2017, 02:34:27 PM by BruceK »
1988 Austin Mini
2002 MINI Cooper S
2007 Triumph Bonneville

Offline BruceK

Re: Minis For Sale on BAT
« Reply #495 on: December 21, 2017, 04:15:39 PM »


 In regard to this car, what are guys seeing in those photos that identifies the rear glass as Mk2?  Not to doubt them bacause I'm asking more for my own understanding.  It looks like Mk1 rear glass to me. 

Some observers are seeing the back window as being several inches wider than a Mk. I rear window, so the Mk. II style.  Personally, I can't tell.

Scratch that.  I took a deeper look and I can tell it's definitely a Mk. I bodyshell (and I added a comment stating so).   Taken with the hydro body tabs, boot board mounts, and RH tank brackets, adds more credence in the column that it is a genuine Cooper S that underwent some awful Frankenstein-like transformation to a pseudo-Innocenti.   
1988 Austin Mini
2002 MINI Cooper S
2007 Triumph Bonneville

Offline MPlayle

Re: Minis For Sale on BAT
« Reply #496 on: December 21, 2017, 04:21:21 PM »
True.  Your points are well made and appreciated.

After having seen others with questionable starts be treated well, the slamming tone of this one just struck me wrong.

I guess that since on the few other auctions I've watched the sellers were more responsive and proactive in getting any missing information and discrepancies corrected quickly, the audience was more forgiving.


Offline velopackrat

Re: Minis For Sale on BAT
« Reply #497 on: December 21, 2017, 10:03:28 PM »
My apology for beating an almost dead horse here but...  the Heritage certificate is puzzling to me because it cites 'Italy' for dealer delivery of this 1275 S that's LHD.  It's summer 1966 and BL has been shipping CKD 998 Minis to Italy for 3-4 months and yet some buyer in Italy has no qualms about ordering an expensive 1275 S and having it shipped or trucked over.  The question is, in what state of assembly?  I realize the Inno parts pictured are later, not Mk1 Inno spec.  Probably Mk3 Inno?  But all that swapping over?  A boatload of work for some Italian garage or dealer.  They must have had a totalled donor.
I'm purely curious as to how BL was selling cars then.  If you were an American and you ordered a LHD Cooper S to take home with you from the UK, the records said 'customer delivery'.  So why did this one say 'Italy'?  They never offered Innos in almond green with OEW roofs.  The white roof color was snowberry.  So I wonder which shade of white this roof is underneath that sweet metallic blue?

https://www.pressreader.com/australia/mini-magazine/20140926/282608851025404


Offline BruceK

Re: Minis For Sale on BAT
« Reply #498 on: December 22, 2017, 03:31:51 PM »
Well, a possible scenario is that the Mini went to a US serviceman stationed in Italy at the time.  He would not have had to pay the very high import duty that Italian citizens did on a car imported from the UK.  And the buyer would have been able to get a real 1275 Cooper S built in Jolly Old England by the same blokes that the built rally winners rather than a car made by the Italians who were new to building Minis and didn't offer a Cooper S.   

At this point I'm in the camp (small that it is) which believes the car to be what the Seller claims - a real Cooper S that has been through some massive and stupid changes over the years. The thing that still boggles my mind is apparently somebody saw fit to work really hard to make it into an Innocenti clone.  Michael offers a good rationale about changing fashions and tastes that could account for that, but it still is crazy from our modern perspective.
« Last Edit: December 22, 2017, 03:34:46 PM by BruceK »
1988 Austin Mini
2002 MINI Cooper S
2007 Triumph Bonneville

Offline MiniDave

Re: Minis For Sale on BAT
« Reply #499 on: December 22, 2017, 04:39:13 PM »
Nah, I'm not buying it....... ::)
1989 Cooper Racing Green
2009 Clubman S
1969 Jaguar XK-E FHC
2004 Audi Allroad 2.7 TT