1978 Pickup, giving her some love...

Started by Jims5543, January 20, 2014, 08:22:02 PM

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Willie_B

Quote from: Jims5543 on August 02, 2014, 09:34:34 AM
I might be doing it wrong. There is lithium grease sprayed everywhere now.

So you think. You just took too long adjusting it!!!

Mudhen

Quote from: Jims5543 on August 02, 2014, 09:34:34 AM
I might be doing it wrong. There is lithium grease sprayed everywhere now.

I think you're supposed to wrap it before it sprays...

94touring


Jims5543

Just ran to Home Depot and back with the Mini.  It runs better down low with the old rockers back on granted, it is very noisy again. That wrapping sound is back which pretty much confirms my suspicion that these rockers are shot.


The lab did an ultrasound as well as an analysis on the bad rocker.  The alloy was substandard / or was not heat treated correctly.

Once I get it back I am sending to Minisport and letting them decided what they want to do.  These rockers are not going back on my car.

Anyone know who sells a nice set of roller rockers 1:3 ratio. No more tricks for me.
Life should not be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside in a cloud of smoke, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming "Wow! What a Ride! -Hunter S. Thompson


Jims5543

#230
I was looking around and found these, what I found more interesting was the wright up below on installing and gaping.  I think I might try the 1.5's once again but modify my gaping slightly per the instructions on Mini Mania.

http://www.minimania.com/part/C-AHT446/Cylinder-Head-Roller-Tipped-Rocker-Assembly-15-Ratio

So below it what they instruct on the Mini Mania site. Bold is what concerns me as I did not gap mine from the side so I was getting a false reading. I also found it interesting that I should increase the gap slightly to 0.015 from 0.012. All info that would have been helpful from Mini Sport.


QuoteThe A-series engine cam followers were originally designed to use 0.010-in clearance between the cam follower and standard cams to allow for heat expansion of the parts and ensure the valves would close properly. On sportier and race profile cams this went up to 0.012-in to cater for the higher running temperatures and far higher rpm capability/use. Because we set the clearance at the valve, we need to allow for the rocker ratio. To do this a little simple math is involved; taking the standard 0.010" cam to follower clearance we need to multiply this by the standard rocker ratio originally quoted as 1.25-1, although in actual installation this is more like 1.22-1. So, 0.010-in x rocker ratio 1.25 gives 0.0125" at the valve.

As a concession to the slightly reduced installed ratio of 1.22-1, the standard valve clearance setting is quoted as 0.012-in. For the sportier/race cams this is then 0.012-in x 1.25 - so 0.015-in at the valve – the valve clearance quoted in Special Tuning manuals for the various cams of the time (731, 649, Sprint and Super Sprint).

Where higher ratio rockers are to be used, the required valve clearance can then be assessed using this simple formula. For instance when using 1.5 rockers, you obviously need to multiply the cam/follower clearance by 1.5. So 0.010-in x 1.5 gives 0.015-in for standard/mild cams and 0.012-in x 1.5 gives 0.018-in for race/more-modified cams. Interestingly, most re-profiled performance cams generally have a suggested valve clearance of 0.016-in with standard ratio rockers. To assess required valve clearance where higher ratio rockers are used simply work it backwards and multiply by the higher ratio. This works out as 0.016-in divided by 1.25 = 0.0128, then x 1.5 = 0.0192" - or 0.019" at the valve.

However, these are only basic starting points; but at least somewhere to start. Another interesting illustration of what trying different valve clearances will achieve is that demonstrated by the MG Metro engine. With valve clearances set, as you would normally expect for a standard engine at 0.012-in, the engine idles very roughly. Shortly after release, Rover published a technical up-date stating the valve clearances should be set at 0.014-in on the inlets and 0.017-in on the exhausts. Instantly the engine idles much smoother and pulls better from lower down. There was even a slight BHP gain!

A similar method can be applied to most cams that have different inlet and exhaust (dual pattern) profiles, i.e. having a slightly bigger clearance on the exhaust valves, or conversely slightly tighter on the inlet valves. However, as a basic initial set-up recommendation, depending on your cam spec, we suggest that where 1.5 ratio rockers are used set valve clearances on both inlet and exhaust to 0.015-in for standard or mild road cams (say up to MD266 spec) or 0.018-in for sportier/race cams.

One other point to note is where rockers with roller tips are used, DO NOT push the feeler blades through from the front as standard. The roller tip acts like a panel roller and will draw the blade through irrespective of gap size – even if there isn't one. The feeler blade must be wiped sideways from one side to the other.

Setting the valve clearances consistently and accurately can be very frustrating, mainly caused by the tools used. It is imperative you use a screwdriver blade that fits snugly in the adjuster screw slot. A looser fit results in difficulty holding the adjuster screw in place when nipping the locknut up. Bearing in mind we are try to set clearances to one thousandth of an inch, it is well worth investing in a tool to specifically do this job. The problem is that most screwdrivers have a tapered blade resulting in a poor fit. Consider using a socket-mounted screwdriver tip can make this task much easier. You can either use a 3/8-in drive extension and 'T'-bar or a 3/8-in drive screwdriver handle with it.
Life should not be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside in a cloud of smoke, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming "Wow! What a Ride! -Hunter S. Thompson

Jims5543

Here is what irritates me. I am going to go ahead and get those Mini Mania rockers for $500. Chalk this up to a case of, you get what you paid for.

I am irritated because Mini Sport started positioning themselves right from the start to blame me, they would never tell me that the adjusting screws were defective. Dan found that out from the US guy, the UK guy is tight lipped about it.

The casting is defective on the broken rocker we have confirmed this with a testing lab, so basically, it is Mini Sports fault, somehow I am supposed to get over this and install these rockers back in with 1 new rocker they are sending me. No way in hell that is happening. I am out of tows with AAA now and have to start paying.  No way I am putting something back in my car I cannot trust.

So I would think they would be willing to refund me on these, it is a mess and to be honest, if they do not refund me, I will make $275 worth of posts regarding the quality of the product across many mini boards as a warning to others.  They really need to think through the ramifications of screwing me over on this. I am contacting them again and offering to send the bad rocker to them for them to have tested to see for themselves. It would be prudent for them to offer to refund me when they find out they had a bad casting.

I cannot even sell these off in clear conscious, if I do it will be at a dig discount and with disclosure over my experience with them. Yet Mini Sport is perfectly fine selling these. 
Life should not be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside in a cloud of smoke, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming "Wow! What a Ride! -Hunter S. Thompson

94touring

As big of a risk taker as I am and half tempted to buy your rockers, I'm like nah I'll pass this time. 

MtyMous

Well I definitely wouldn't run them myself. Makes me second quess the quality of a lot of their in-house made products. Hmm

Jims5543

New rockers ordered this morning will be here on Friday with ground shipping from Cali to Florida.

Gonna put them in this weekend then mess with the carb tuning a little.

I think I have the AC repaired my self (jb weld) and hope to have that back installed this weekend as well.

Life should not be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside in a cloud of smoke, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming "Wow! What a Ride! -Hunter S. Thompson

tsumini

Quote from: 94touring on August 02, 2014, 05:32:59 PM
I'd still buy the 1.5s personally but here are 1.3s. 

http://www.minispares.com/product/Classic/Engine/Cylinder_heads/Rocker_Assemblies/C-AHT437.aspx?100407&ReturnUrl=/search/classic/roller%20rockers.aspx|Back%20to%20search
Hard to see what the configuration is like but it appears that the adjusting screws threads are on a separate nut and not threaded through the rocker. For my money cut threads through the rocker is poison.

Jims5543

My stock rockers have the adjusting bolt threaded through them. I have never seen a rocker where it is not threaded through the actual rocker on any car, including older Porsches and BMW's I have owned through the years.

I am not aware of any rocker where this is not the case, I am kind of confused by that statement.
Life should not be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside in a cloud of smoke, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming "Wow! What a Ride! -Hunter S. Thompson

sparetimetoys

Quote from: tsumini on August 05, 2014, 09:57:31 AM
Quote from: 94touring on August 02, 2014, 05:32:59 PM
I'd still buy the 1.5s personally but here are 1.3s. 

http://www.minispares.com/product/Classic/Engine/Cylinder_heads/Rocker_Assemblies/C-AHT437.aspx?100407&ReturnUrl=/search/classic/roller%20rockers.aspx|Back%20to%20search
Hard to see what the configuration is like but it appears that the adjusting screws threads are on a separate nut and not threaded through the rocker. For my money cut threads through the rocker is poison.


I see what your saying the way the photo looks. It's just jam nuts though.
Home of Global Warmer Racing. Saving the smog one car at a time.

tsumini

Quote from: sparetimetoys on August 05, 2014, 05:57:58 PM
Quote from: tsumini on August 05, 2014, 09:57:31 AM
Quote from: 94touring on August 02, 2014, 05:32:59 PM
I'd still buy the 1.5s personally but here are 1.3s. 

http://www.minispares.com/product/Classic/Engine/Cylinder_heads/Rocker_Assemblies/C-AHT437.aspx?100407&ReturnUrl=/search/classic/roller%20rockers.aspx|Back%20to%20search
Hard to see what the configuration is like but it appears that the adjusting screws threads are on a separate nut and not threaded through the rocker. For my money cut threads through the rocker is poison.


I see what your saying the way the photo looks. It's just jam nuts though.
Sorry for the confusion. I shouldn't speculate about ad photos. Your fractured rocker looked like it initiated in the in the threaded area. I would just avoid any billet that has threads near a highly stressed area. But again maybe what I see in photos is not the case nad since I have not examined them I may be all wet.

Jims5543

I sent Minisport an email yesterday explaining my disappointment in their product and how they are handling the failure.

I cannot sell these rockers with a clear conscious since I feel they are not dependable.  I will list them for sale @ 50% off with full disclosure... I guess...

I told them the test result of the cracked  indicated a poor casting or insufficient heat treating.  I also told them I was disappointed that they were not honest with me over the adjusting screws.

I have to wonder if they know they have bad rockers out there too.

Bottom line, if they are not going to take these rockers back in return I made my last purchase from them for this truck. I will pay more with other suppliers since obviously Minisport is making some really cheap crap that I do not want on my car anyway.

New rockers should be here on Saturday, I would love to get them in over the weekend. God, I am getting sick of pulling plugs, the alternator and gaping the valves.

Life should not be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside in a cloud of smoke, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming "Wow! What a Ride! -Hunter S. Thompson

Jims5543

I feel like I am in bizarro world. When I report to them that there is something wrong with the strength of the material used in the broken rocker, they reply they knew I would find there was nothing wrong with the material. It is like it never registered with them.

They keep stating they machine solid billet, I cannot seem to get through to them that the word billet defines a wide array of manufacturing styles including casting.

So, I have in my possession a set of shit rockers that I will not put in my car and I am having a hard time selling because I do not want someone else to go through this.

Buyer beware!!

This was my email to them after we discovered the billet was weak and not of proper construction or hardness.

QuoteHello,

My friend reported back to be the following:

QuoteNo charge.

The inspector said that it is either a poor casting, or poor heat treatment, but that their tests could not determine which.  Ultrasonic testing did not show any other flaws in the rocker.


That's all they could do.
I'll ship it back to you this coming week.


Once I receive the rocker back I will send it off to you to analyze.  As of right now, I am not installing these rockers back in my truck and having a hard time selling these off with a clear conscious.  I would like for you to analyze this rocker and let me know what you determine to be the problem.  I know it is your position that 100% of the time it is the consumers fault, so I have to wonder why only 1 rocker broke like only 1 adjusting screw broke.  If this was a clearance issue I would imagine more would have broken.  I have learned from your US supplier that there were some bad screws mixed in with your good screws that were not heat treated correctly, you neglected to inform me of this, but you were quick to offer a full set of new screws. A friend of mine here in the states had an adjusting screw fail as well. He was informed of the bad batch. I have to wonder if this has happened to your rockers as well.

Please provide me with a shipping address and I will send you the failed rocker to inspect yourself.


Their reply

QuoteThanks for your email it is nice to hear from you again, thanks for sharing the report with us, to be honest, I was confident that they would not find a fault with the alloy rocker – they are not cast, they are machined from a solid billet.
If you remember back to one of my emails I did remark that I was more concerned about the rocker adjusting screw than the alloy rocker as I had not heard any other complaints,at that point,  however since you first reported it our USA agent has been here for the IMM and told us of at least one more problem with the screws. I expect there may be more as time progresses.
I understand your hesitation in refitting the rocker assembly or even selling them on, but we are confident that if you follow the fitting instructions you should have no more problems with the rockers. The new screws I sent you have been manufactured in house rather than bought in, so we can control the quality. I sent the screws and the replacement rocker as a gesture of good will to you as a valued customer, not for any other reason.
I hope this puts your mind at rest, and that you will continue to use them and reap the benefits of the extra valve lift and the performance that goes hand in hand with that.
Kind regards
Life should not be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside in a cloud of smoke, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming "Wow! What a Ride! -Hunter S. Thompson

Jims5543

My final reply, the for sale add on all the Mini boards will be interesting:


I already purchased a $500 set of rockers from Mini Mania and chalked this up to a "you get what you paid for" experience.

I guess I will sell them off with a disclaimer so a buyer knows they may have a problem with rockers breaking.

I thought you might want to analyze the failed part, as I said, and it seems to have been ignored, the material is weak and not up to the task at hand. You throw around the term Solid Billet, this is how my friend, who deals with these things every day in the aerospace industry, explained it to me:

QuoteSee, herein lies a problem. They talk about it being made from alloy billet.  Many companies try to use that word to imply that the item is better than a cast part.  The truth is, it may be, and it may NOT be.  See, billet is just an industry term for a "chunk" of metal.  It can be an extrusion, a forging, or a casting.  "Produced from an alloy billet" just means that they took a chunk of metal and machined it down.  This would be better than a "cast to final form" item, but if they use crappy billets, then the added quality of being made from billet is still questionable.  A turd is a turd, no matter how much you polish it.

From the photo you sent, it looks to me like a marginal quality cast billet was used.  You should not see that kind of grain formation unless the temperature of the casting was not properly controlled.

I am also surprised at their choice to use 2014 alloy instead of 6061-T6.  The 6061 has better resistance to fatigue and cracking.

Thank you for the replacement rocker and adjusting screws as soon as I receive them I can at least recoup some of my cost by reselling them.

Jim
Life should not be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside in a cloud of smoke, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming "Wow! What a Ride! -Hunter S. Thompson

Jims5543

Windshield wipers shit the bed yesterday driving home from the office. (2 miles)

Outside of fuses, anything typical I should be looking for wrong?
Life should not be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside in a cloud of smoke, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming "Wow! What a Ride! -Hunter S. Thompson

94touring

Fuses, wires, then open it up and grease it up as a last resort.   

Jims5543

Can I use the white lithium from the hood latch.  ;D
Life should not be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside in a cloud of smoke, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming "Wow! What a Ride! -Hunter S. Thompson

94touring

Ha  ;D  Basically the grease in the gearing eventually hardens up which binds things up.  They can be intimidating at first to tear into, and getting the assembly out can make you aggravated, but probably not a bad idea to do if you have the time. 

94touring

Ok it's been a week, have you broken down again yet?   ;D

Jims5543

I have not had any time, I am honestly afraid to drive it as my AAA tow is now going to cost me. I have been considering a car dolly to keep so Mrs.5543 can come get me every time I decide to drive it.

I wish I was joking.


I saw a custom dolly for sale when I purchased mine and wished I bought it now.

I am slammed here are work and with 105°+ heat index every day, the last thing I feel like doing is going out in the hot garage and working some more. I am going to pull an AC unit out of storage and install it this weekend to I can work in there in the evenings.

I started to head towards it a couple of days ago and did not bother.

BTW _ need to update my rocker story and warn any of you looking to buy Mini Mania's $500 rockers. They are incomplete and need another $50-$100 in parts that are neither included in the sale nor are suggested as being purchased (unless you read the find print in the product description and know what you are reading) after you add it to your cart on their store online.

So I am still rocking my shot, stock, loud ass rockers.

The parts I need have been on back order for 2 weeks now.





Life should not be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside in a cloud of smoke, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming "Wow! What a Ride! -Hunter S. Thompson

94touring

You may consider building one of my tow bars.  I haven't made any in ages for people, due to concerns about being sued if something went bad.  But for yourself, just a haul across town wouldn't require the cross brace necessarily, just need to take a harbor freight bar and modify a few things, or I could make a cross brace bar for you and send out the hardware and let you have at it. 

Jims5543

The additional parts finally shipped from Mini Mania, it only took 2.5 weeks for them to get them out of backorder.

I should see them by weeks end. I hope to have the new rockers in this weekend.

Life should not be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside in a cloud of smoke, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming "Wow! What a Ride! -Hunter S. Thompson