Modified Engine Package... now steering modification

[Bahowe1]

Hey guys,
I'm starting a new post here, rather than muddy my 'build' post since this is a specific task.  I've got the minitec frame in my car, with the Honda D16 fitted.  It's set up as a RHD car, which meant cutting out some of the floor and fitting in this special panel.  The panel essentially allowed some room for the steering rack.  If you are familiar with these setups, the steering rack 'box' in RHD and the Honda tranny compete for space, so minitec solution was to move the rack.  While in the mountains for the CMU event 6 months ago or so, I had to raise the car, and throw off all my alignment work.  However, I still am not convinced the car turns as well as it should, for what it is.  So... I want to try and modify it and improve it.  We shall see...
Suspension geometry is VERY intense, so I'm going to try to keep it simpler and see the outcome.

Definitions... tie rods - the skinny rod that emerges from the steering rack, has a ball on one end that sorta fits in a socket on the end of the steering rack, and had the tie rod end on the other end.  Steering arms - the arms that bolt with two bolts onto the top of the wheel hub and connect to the tie rod end. 

An improvement, I think, is to try and get the tie rods - straight.  First picture, exagerated (some), but shows how the tie rods emerge from the rack.  Toward the front of the car and downward.  Mostly because the steering rack was moved toward the back of the car, and up (interference issue).  I think this is affecting bump steer and ackerman angles.
My solution?  - Lengthen steering arms.  Reduce steering arm drop.  Keep steering arm angle constant to not impact ackerman.
Drawback... Steering arms longer = less steering response.  Could be a good thing at higher speeds, might increase turn radius too much though.
So, I did some math'in.  End result - lengthen arm by 1 5/8", reduce drop by 3/8ths.  So I made up a simple jig, and ended up creating the ugliest steering arms even seen (picture looks funny, but the angle didn't change).
I thought I was going to have just enough thread left on the tie rods for the rod end adjustements, but didn't, so I had to cut up Dan's old rods (thanks Dan!) and take out 3/8ths inch.
So, it's all straight now emerging from the rack.
Outcome??  I don't really know yet.  I realized my steering rack is not really centered, so I'm going to have to do some more adjusting.  I've got some trips coming up soon though, so it might not be a fast evolution.

[MiniDave]

It might be easier to make it left drive and move the rack back where it belongs!  :-\

What affects bump steer is the relative height between the rack and the steering arm - they need to be in the same plane - watch Project Binky for a tutorial on this. I doubt the length of either the tie rods or the steering arms is your problem. If you're getting bump steer you need a spacer between the end of the steering arm and the tie rod end so that those two are in the same plane again....or move the rack back down. Looks like that's what you were attempting to do by lengthening the steering arm?

This is partially why Don's Pup is LHD, that and he can't shift for beans with his left hand!  ;D

You also need to be careful about lengthening those steering arms so you don't run out of clearance between the arm and the wheel.

[BruceK]

This is partially why Don's Pup is LHD, that and he can't shift for beans with his left hand!  ;D

Pfft!   That excuse doesn't hold water for the hundreds of millions of drivers in the countries that drive on the left!   ;D

[MiniDave]

No, he's an artist, remember? can't use that side of his brain!   ;D ;D ;D ;D

[Bahowe1]

Dave,
Yeah.  Believe me... I noodled and noodled about moving it back to LHD.  The problem is... ALL my wiring, ECU, etc is wired for fitting in that side.  Also, my heater and AC system now also occupies that space.  To try to swap sides, would be a huge nightmare... like worse than trying to make a new subframe, which I am also considering (or buying).
So yeah, the 'reduction of the steering arm drop' was to get it all back in the same plane, which it is now.  The lengthening of the steering arms was to try to reduce the steep angle of the tie rods heading to the steering arm and therefore affecting ackerman.
By keeping the angle of the steering arms the same as stock, just lengthening them, I still had clearance to the wheel.  well... these wheels at least.  I wouldn't want to run any others where the backspacing was different putting them even more to the inside of the car.  Where I have them now should be about zero scrub.

[MiniDave]

Sounds like you understand the principles well, good luck! BTW, if you don't want to use longer tie rods, you can use Spitfire tie rod ends, they're longer than those on the Mini.

Are those the steering arms you plan to use or only something fabbed up as a model to prove the concept?

Looks like I need to do my rant about using claw hammers on cars!   ;D ;D ;D ;D

<Puts on professor's hat>

[94touring]

I was guilted into buying shop hammers.

[MiniDave]

Damn straight..... 4.gif

[94touring]

It is nice having a variety of sizes though  4.gif

[BruceK]

It is nice having a variety of sizes though  4.gif

So... with all the variety of hammers... does everything now look like a nail of various sizes?   ;D

[Bahowe1]

Dave, I am glad I convinced you that I know something about steering geometry.  I have been studying hard because I knew NOTHING... but wanted to learn before telling you guys what I was trying. 

Uh oh!... yeah, I think I need to hear the rant.  I understand a claw hammer is for framing and wood work... teach me the ways of the shop hammer.  In all seriousness, I like to learn.

I hope to not use those arms... it's mainly a fabbed up something or other.  IF (that's a strong IF) it proves out, I'll need to come up with a final solution.

[MiniDave]

Well, there are hammers, and there are hammers......a lot has to do with the metallurgy involved - claw hammers are made to hit soft metal into softer wood. If you hit a hard metal thing - like a punch or cold chisel - with one it may chip and that chip will find it's way where it doesn't belong, like your eye or skin.

There are lots of different designs of hammers, so there is no one size fits all. You need a good 3lb hammer to drive things, you need ball peen hammers of various sizes to hit punches and chisels and body hammers are shaped to work sheet metal in various ways. All have different uses.

Claw hammers should only be used on nails.

A good selection means you'll use the right one for the right job, right Dan?

[94touring]

Hf has the hammer kit.   From small to big.  I have a hammer drawer.   All my claw hammers are on the shelf near the paint cans for closing lids. 

[94touring]

It is nice having a variety of sizes though  4.gif

So... with all the variety of hammers... does everything now look like a nail of various sizes?   ;D

Not sure but I hammer in the morning, evening, and supper time.

[MiniDave]

   All my claw hammers are on the shelf near the paint cans for closing lids.

See? Right tool for the right job!   ;D ;D ;D ;D

[Bahowe1]

Cough... cough...