Don's Vtec Pup

Started by MiniDave, June 19, 2018, 04:30:52 PM

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MiniDave

Several of the forum members have met Don Ipock, he has a red Vtec Pup and has been on several of our runs, including our recent foray in Texas.

We've been talking about putting a taller final drive in the Pup since the first day of our trip home to KC from MiniTec in Georgia in 2008, when he bought it - and now it's finally going to happen. About 2 months ago he bought the gears, and now that I have a short break in the shop schedule, we jumped onto it.

We're also looking for reasons why this bastard rattles and vibrates so much (more on that in a minute) - I keep saying Honda's don't buzz and rattle like this, why should the Mini? - to that end I'm also looking at ideas to re-engineer MiniTec's  engine steadies and maybe some other parts of the subframe while we have it out and accessible.

Today we got the motor and subframe dropped out - that's the only way the motor will come out BTW - and assembled his new Harbor Freight 1 ton engine hoist.  I've had the loan of a buddies 2 ton HF hoist but my shop is so small that storing it became a problem, this one is about 25% smaller in footprint, plus it can live at Don's garage until I need it again.

Once the engine/subframe assembly were out I found several things - the clamp that held the rear engine steady in place was held on with a couple of bolts - and they were loose. Said bolts were completely impossible to reach with the engine in the car BTW, I think some welding may be in order here to make it more permanent. Second, I found where the subframe itself was broken - that HAD to be making some noise too. Third, I found where the subframe was hitting the body - there was a rusty and shiny spot where they'd touched......I don't know if this was an issue or not, but I will fix it while it's out.

Don's going to clean and repaint everything while it's out too.

Next, I'll pull the transmission and install the new gearset, we'll also install a new limited slip device - the one for Honda's is a simple aluminum block, and it can wear and reduce it's effectiveness. MiniTec gets $250 for one of these, Don found the exact same part on Amazon for $17. They don't offer these taller gearsets anymore from any of the vendors we could find online, but one of them had one last set rotting on the shelf and made Don a really good deal on it.....about 1/2 price. Who says procrastination doesn't pay? (I've been trying to get him to do this job for about 8 -10 years now, when we first looked at these gearsets they were $800, I think he paid $400.) Edit: he got a smoking deal on the gears - $200!

While it's out we'll look at the clutch and replace if necessary, and believe it or not the engine has a few oil leaks to address as well, front and rear main seals, new cam belt and seals, new drive belts, plugs and a few other maintenance bits and pieces.

MiniTec told him this was a JDM engine with 30K on it, but he found the VIN tag on the engine and looked it up online - it was from a totaled car in Georgia that had 140K on it, so it now has 170K on it - I  guess it's due for some new gaskets and seals. We've debated whether to do a mild overhaul on the engine while it's out, but it still runs strong and doesn't burn oil that we can tell, so I think we'll just go ahead and run it at is it.

He's done 30K on this car since he bought it, I think that's pretty good for a part-time toy car, but once we're done with  it this time I expect he'll drive it even more, especially if I can tame the rattles and vibrations + it will be so much more pleasant on the highway if it's not turning 4K RPM.
Complete failure at retirement

1989 Cooper Racing Green
2009 Clubman S
2014 Audi Allroad

MiniDave

BTW, any of you Vtec owners want to post up pics of your engine steadies, I could use some inspiration!
Complete failure at retirement

1989 Cooper Racing Green
2009 Clubman S
2014 Audi Allroad

BruceK

Looking forward to seeing more about this.    That break in the subframe is strange.   How much does the engine/gearbox weigh?
1988 Austin Mini
2002 MINI Cooper S
1992 Toyota LiteAce (JDM)
1997 Jeep Wrangler Sahara

94touring

John McGee has his own frame that may be worth considering.   

I vote refresh the engine with high comp pistons and a cam.

MiniDave

#4
Yes, I've already talked to John about his, he sent me a couple of pics too. I've also looked at Mike Smith's pics on how he did his....


MiniTec don't do their frame this way anymore either, so I'm looking at their Gen 2 version to see If I can convert this one to a similar design. Those holes are there to pass thru wire, heater hoses and so on - and they are a PITA. It would be much better to have a bar below and a removeable one above, but then I'm not planning to have this out again - ever!

I agree with the mild overhaul - nice 3 angle valve job, new pistons and rings, bearings etc. But he may not have the money to do it right now, and the engine runs fine as it is.

More pics of the teardown later today. Here's a pic of MiniTec's current D series frame design.....and one of John MCgee's frame kit - I like John's better!
Complete failure at retirement

1989 Cooper Racing Green
2009 Clubman S
2014 Audi Allroad

gr8kornholio

If that's the actual mileage on the motor you should check if it has the timing belt.  Those are usually a 90K mile item on Honda motors.
I am the GR8KORNHOLIO! Are you threatening me?

Saussie Aussie 1965 Australian MK1 Mini.
"Beavis" - 07 MY/MY MCS, B/MY Konig Daylites, JCW sideskirts, TSW springs, TSW lower rear control arms -- Exploring the country with new friends since 11/09.

MiniDave

We're going to change the cam belt too......
Complete failure at retirement

1989 Cooper Racing Green
2009 Clubman S
2014 Audi Allroad

Jimini II

Stupid move for Minitec to lie about the mileage with the WWW at your fingertips and you confirmed it by the engine leaks which usually occur at 100 plus K.
It's strange where the crack in the frame is i would of expected it to be next to the engine mounts.
Maybe do the water pump and if needed the belt tensioner at the same time as the belt.

Bahowe1

Hey Dave,
A couple years ago, I changed the final drive in mine as well to a 3.7.  It's a good move for sure.  I went with the OBX LSD also, not the little aluminum block thing.  I'll be interested to hear how that works out for you.  Let me know if there is any information I can give, or help in any other way.

flipstah

Buzz? During engine loads? Could be the engine mount bushing

MiniDave

#10
Current plan for the subframe is to cut the sheet metal web across the back off and replace it with a single piece of square tubing, and from that I'm going to build an engine steady that goes straight down from that cross bar. According to John McGee, he only uses the one engine steady and it works fine.

Today's work - we got the engine and trans out of the subframe, then split the trans off, removed the clutch (disc was worn down almost to the rivets, hard to believe that's a 30K mile clutch) and got the engine mounted up into the engine stand. We had to jury rig the engine stand by setting it on top of the legs of the engine hoist as there was no other way to get the engine on the stand.

We're not going to do an engine overhaul, but we're going to replace the pan gasket, intake and exhaust gaskets, front and rear main seals, water pump and thermostat, cam belt and tensioner, entire clutch assy (although the flywheel looks great)

Then we'll jump into the transmission and change the final drive and replace the stub axle seals and shift seal.

All in all it's quite a bit of work, and I hope he's happy with the final results.
Complete failure at retirement

1989 Cooper Racing Green
2009 Clubman S
2014 Audi Allroad

gr8kornholio

Looking good.  Dig the shop footwear. 
I am the GR8KORNHOLIO! Are you threatening me?

Saussie Aussie 1965 Australian MK1 Mini.
"Beavis" - 07 MY/MY MCS, B/MY Konig Daylites, JCW sideskirts, TSW springs, TSW lower rear control arms -- Exploring the country with new friends since 11/09.

MiniDave

#12
Those are Don's steel toed Crocs  ;D

Today I worked on the subframe, I bought some really thick walled 1" tubing to replace the webbed sheet metal across the back of the subframe. I cut and modified it to fit correctly, measured the distance between the two top bolts and cut the top half of the webbing off, when I measured, the top bolts had moved about 1/4" apart, so I'll have to get my come along on it and pull it back together before I weld the cross bar in.

First pic shows the web cut out - I left two triangle sections to act as gussets, second pic shows the gap I have to pull back before I weld anything up, otherwise it may not fit.

Tomorrow we're planning to open up the transmichigan and change out the final drive gear. Ben, anything we need to watch out for when we do that?
Complete failure at retirement

1989 Cooper Racing Green
2009 Clubman S
2014 Audi Allroad

94touring

#13
I like that better than the sheet metal web setup. 

Also...since things shifted, may not be a bad idea to mount it to the car at all points where it bolts up before welding back up. 

MiniDave

Right, I'm going to pull it together with the come-along, then weld the top bar just enough to make sure it won't pop apart again, then fit it in the car. If everything still lines up I'll weld it solid, if not it will be easy to cut it apart and jig it till it fits again.
Complete failure at retirement

1989 Cooper Racing Green
2009 Clubman S
2014 Audi Allroad

MiniDave

#15
It took very little to pull the two sides together that 1/8" with my come along.....so today I finished up welding the cross bar into the subframe, then we fit it into the car and the big bolts lined up perfectly, so did the six bolts that attaches the back part of the subframe to the floor.

After that we attacked the front of the motor to change the cam belt, water pump and crankshaft seal - we also pulled the valve cover so we can adjust the valves. The engine is remarkably clean for 170K, routine oil changes really help there, and it still has the original cam belt. The crank seal was definitely leaking, so is the rear main seal. The car also had the original Honda clutch, the disc was worn down to the rivets but they hadn't touched the flywheel yet. Honda clutches definitely last a long time!

Once we're done with the front end we'll have to take it off the stand to remove the rear main seal and reinstall the clutch. At that point the engine part is done and we'll start on the transmichigan, replacing the seals and changing the final drive gears.

Once that's done we can mount the engine assembly back in the subframe and see about building the engine steady. It's getting there......
Complete failure at retirement

1989 Cooper Racing Green
2009 Clubman S
2014 Audi Allroad

94touring

Do you have a welder or have to borrow one?

MiniDave

#17
I have a little 110V that I've had for decades, still does a nice job doesn't it?  It's what I built my Jag with....

Since he had already bought the gasket we pulled the oil pan, plus that let us remove the oil pump housing which held the crank seal, so it was easier to remove and reinstall.

We knocked off for the night, tomorrow we'll change the rear seal, reinstall the oil pan and cam belt, then set the valve clearances. That will pretty much do it for the motor.
Complete failure at retirement

1989 Cooper Racing Green
2009 Clubman S
2014 Audi Allroad

MiniDave

Bottom end looks clean too.....

Man that's a lot of parts to put back on!
Complete failure at retirement

1989 Cooper Racing Green
2009 Clubman S
2014 Audi Allroad

94touring

He should come to the dyno day.  You definetly have your work cut out from the looks of it.

MiniDave

He is planning to come to the dyno day.
Complete failure at retirement

1989 Cooper Racing Green
2009 Clubman S
2014 Audi Allroad

MiniDave

Today we got a little bit of a late start, but still got quite a bit done. We installed the new oil pan gasket and the pan - we had removed the pan to make it easier to install the front and rear main seals - then flipped the motor over so we could install the new cam belt and tensioner. With that done we swapped out the thermostat, checked the valve clearances and popped the valve cover back on. Don did some more cleaning and finished up the remaining odds and ends. The engine is now ready to come off the stand and be reunited with the transmission.

Tomorrow we tear down the tranny to install the new final drive, then we can set the power unit in the subframe and I can engineer the steady and mount, then it's time to go back in the car.
Complete failure at retirement

1989 Cooper Racing Green
2009 Clubman S
2014 Audi Allroad

MiniDave

#22
Today was transmission day......

Taking it apart was the work of a couple of hours, finding all the bits that had to come apart in order to separate the case halves, then once I got the cases apart, then it was time to figure out how to get the gearsets out of the case.

At one point it all just came apart and I had both gearsets lying on the bench.

Next the final drive came out.....one interesting bit of knowledge - the bolts that hold the gear to the hub are left hand thread! I only figured it out after breaking two 3/8" drive sockets.

Getting the final drive on was pretty straightforward, then we had to disassemble the mainshaft and reassemble all the gears onto the new mainshaft. That was the easy part! Don spent a couple of hours thoroughly cleaning the cases and we started putting it back together. The mainshart, all three shifters and the layshaft all come out of the case at one time - which means they all go back in at one time too! Trying to get everything juggled into it's respective place all together was NOT fun, but I did finally get it all slid into place.

However, I'm not happy with the reverse gear, it seems to ride on the 1st gear, so we stopped for the day so I can give it some more thought. 
Complete failure at retirement

1989 Cooper Racing Green
2009 Clubman S
2014 Audi Allroad

BruceK

Very interesting.   Do you have a Honda manual to guide you? 
1988 Austin Mini
2002 MINI Cooper S
1992 Toyota LiteAce (JDM)
1997 Jeep Wrangler Sahara

94touring

I may have overlooked it, but what final drive was in it and what are you putting in? 3.7?