Author Topic: Torque Steer a Problem?  (Read 1085 times)

Offline Rosebud

Torque Steer a Problem?
« on: March 10, 2018, 10:57:02 PM »
I’m wondering if anyone is experiencing torque steer and thinks it’s just a Mini fact of life. I did. Rosebud has 90+ ft/lbs of torque, a Quaife LSD and sticky, semi-slick tires. You would think she’d be the poster child for torque steer. And she was, until I began experimenting with various tire and wheel combination and different alignment settings. Read more here...

https://www.facebook.com/notes/poser-motorsports/torque-steer-a-problem/1857134704359197/
Rosebud
...the sled, not the flower
https://www.facebook.com/PoserMotorSports

Offline MiniDave

Re: Torque Steer a Problem?
« Reply #1 on: March 11, 2018, 10:52:28 AM »
A friend has a Vtec powered Pup that was almost undriveable when he put the hammer down....he also runs 10's, with A008s or R32's depending on weather and what drive he's doing - on either Revos or Mambas. I wound up at almost the exact same settings as you....

Front
3* caster
.5* camber
1* toe out

Rear
.5* camber
1* toe in

Car tracks true, steering is considerably lighter and torque steer is all but eliminated except in first gear - because he's running the stock Honda gears that were meant for 15" tires, 1st is almost a granny gear. If you start in 2nd it does not torque steer at all.

My Racing Green with its stock 1275 has considerably less power and I'm running 13's so I have yet to find the magic numbers for it, but it's pretty close running these same numbers.....
« Last Edit: March 11, 2018, 11:49:36 AM by MiniDave »
1989 Cooper Racing Green
2009 Clubman S
1969 Jaguar XK-E FHC
2004 Audi Allroad 2.7 TT

Offline Rosebud

Re: Torque Steer a Problem?
« Reply #2 on: March 11, 2018, 11:14:56 AM »
Those numbers are similar to what I'm running. I may dial in a bit more toe for my next track day.
Rosebud
...the sled, not the flower
https://www.facebook.com/PoserMotorSports

Offline MPlayle

Re: Torque Steer a Problem?
« Reply #3 on: March 11, 2018, 11:18:44 AM »
Dave,

Are the camber numbers for negative camber or positive camber?

(I will be doing the Moke's alignment later next week when the kit arrives.)


Offline Rosebud

Re: Torque Steer a Problem?
« Reply #4 on: March 11, 2018, 11:30:44 AM »
Dave,

Are the camber numbers for negative camber or positive camber?

(I will be doing the Moke's alignment later next week when the kit arrives.)

Mine are 1.0 neg. Factory specs call for 2 degrees positive.
Rosebud
...the sled, not the flower
https://www.facebook.com/PoserMotorSports

Offline MiniDave

Re: Torque Steer a Problem?
« Reply #5 on: March 11, 2018, 11:48:27 AM »
half a degree negative, Michael
1989 Cooper Racing Green
2009 Clubman S
1969 Jaguar XK-E FHC
2004 Audi Allroad 2.7 TT

Offline 94touring

Re: Torque Steer a Problem?
« Reply #6 on: March 11, 2018, 11:58:32 AM »
Everything I've read on suspension geometry is pretty close to what you came up with.  Front toe 1/16 - 1/8" out, rear toe 1/16 -1/8" in.  Front camber 1.5° neg, rear 0.5° neg.  Front castor 3° positive.

Oh and for adjustable shocks, slightly stiffer up front.
« Last Edit: March 11, 2018, 12:03:41 PM by 94touring »

Offline Rosebud

Re: Torque Steer a Problem?
« Reply #7 on: March 11, 2018, 12:16:43 PM »
half a degree negative, Michael

Hmm... I got these figures (see pic) out of the BMC shop manual. Sez 2 degrees positive—plus/minus 1 degree. I thought that was kind of weird. In any case, I'm running 0 degrees but may go 1 or 2 negative for my next track day. Where are you reading ˝ degree negative, which BTW makes more sense to me.
Rosebud
...the sled, not the flower
https://www.facebook.com/PoserMotorSports

Offline MiniDave

Re: Torque Steer a Problem?
« Reply #8 on: March 11, 2018, 12:20:28 PM »
I didn't read it anywhere, I just experimented with it till I got a good solution. At the time I had access to a modern Hunter laser alignment machine. I found that using 1.5* camber gave great results on the track or in extremely spirited driving, but was not fun in day to day situations, so I found backing it off to .5* still gave great results but was easier to drive in most circumstances.
1989 Cooper Racing Green
2009 Clubman S
1969 Jaguar XK-E FHC
2004 Audi Allroad 2.7 TT

Offline Rosebud

Re: Torque Steer a Problem?
« Reply #9 on: March 11, 2018, 12:31:53 PM »
I didn't read it anywhere, I just experimented with it till I got a good solution....

Sounds like you found the sweet spot. I don't know how the factory came up to 3 degrees positive.
Rosebud
...the sled, not the flower
https://www.facebook.com/PoserMotorSports

Offline 94touring

Re: Torque Steer a Problem?
« Reply #10 on: March 11, 2018, 12:36:22 PM »
Camber from the factory was positive and not exactly exact. If you buy the negative 1.5° arms, you end up closer to 0 give or take so everyone says.  A lot of it depends on ride height. Factory may start at 3° on fresh cones but as they settle and eventually sag over time, that 3° will have changed.

Offline MiniDave

Re: Torque Steer a Problem?
« Reply #11 on: March 11, 2018, 12:41:04 PM »
Exactly.

Ride height is a big part of the equation - you'll notice in all those pics of the Minis when they were new they were WAY up off the ground!

After the cones have settled in is the right time to do another alignment, but first set your ride height - this is where hi-los and other adjustable parts really come in handy as they allow you to really dial it in.. I add some weight in the driver's seat to mimic me in the car as I'm usually alone when I drive. If you don't have weight you can add a 1/4" or so of ride height on the driver's side of the car....then set your alignment to specs.
1989 Cooper Racing Green
2009 Clubman S
1969 Jaguar XK-E FHC
2004 Audi Allroad 2.7 TT

Offline Willie_B

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Re: Torque Steer a Problem?
« Reply #12 on: March 11, 2018, 12:42:25 PM »
On the toe numbers, how do you convert from degrees to inch to mm?

Offline Rosebud

Re: Torque Steer a Problem?
« Reply #13 on: March 11, 2018, 12:43:22 PM »
Factory may start at 3° on fresh cones but as they settle and eventually sag over time, that 3° will have changed.

That makes sense, I guess. Plus, I'm sure the factory didn't factor in how WE prefer to drive our Minis.
Rosebud
...the sled, not the flower
https://www.facebook.com/PoserMotorSports

Offline MiniDave

Re: Torque Steer a Problem?
« Reply #14 on: March 11, 2018, 12:46:11 PM »
There is a formula, but my machine was calibrated in degrees.....1/16" to 1/8" each side will work.

Here is a converter you can use...

https://robrobinette.com/ConvertToeDegreesToInches.htm
1989 Cooper Racing Green
2009 Clubman S
1969 Jaguar XK-E FHC
2004 Audi Allroad 2.7 TT

Offline 94touring

Re: Torque Steer a Problem?
« Reply #15 on: March 11, 2018, 12:47:57 PM »
Factory may start at 3° on fresh cones but as they settle and eventually sag over time, that 3° will have changed.

That makes sense, I guess. Plus, I'm sure the factory didn't factor in how WE prefer to drive our Minis.

Yeah it's all about preference.  What you have though jives with what most enjoy the most.

Offline Rosebud

Re: Torque Steer a Problem?
« Reply #16 on: March 11, 2018, 01:04:08 PM »
On the toe numbers, how do you convert from degrees to inch to mm?

Here's a chart that came with my Tenhulzen alignment device that converts degrees/inches. I'm sure there are other conversion tools on the internet. Regarding my alignment device, I was less then successful replicating the settings I got from a legitimate alignment shop. Maybe I'll post a review of the Tenhulzen on my FB blog in the future.
« Last Edit: March 11, 2018, 01:07:11 PM by Rosebud »
Rosebud
...the sled, not the flower
https://www.facebook.com/PoserMotorSports

Offline joakwin

Re: Torque Steer a Problem?
« Reply #17 on: March 13, 2018, 05:26:34 PM »
part of the way i dealt with torque steer was putting stiffer springs in the back, i had a lsd up front as well
and a d16z6 with itb's and all kinds of power was made from it

i had some 200 lbs springs on my coilovers,
im going to try 175 spring this time around

i always felt like the front end lifting up and transferring the load to the back caused the car to have more torque steer issues
stiffer springs in the back doesn't let the weight transfer to happen, helps to keep the front end down

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0RlktUKNJq0

this video show the front end lifting up, as it lifts up the toe is all over the place
« Last Edit: March 13, 2018, 05:30:26 PM by joakwin »
D16z6 Automatic, 4 wheel disc brakes, deseamed shell

Offline Rosebud

Re: Torque Steer a Problem?
« Reply #18 on: March 13, 2018, 07:57:38 PM »
i always felt like the front end lifting up and transferring the load to the back caused the car to have more torque steer issues
stiffer springs in the back doesn't let the weight transfer to happen, helps to keep the front end down

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0RlktUKNJq0

Wow. That's some torque steer all right! I know what you mean about feeling like if you can keep the front from lifting it might minimize torque steer. I'm not sure that it would, but it sure seems like it might. I can tell you that those huge wheel offsets aren't helping things, but with the kind of power your producing, you may not have enough rubber of the road to run skinner tires w/ less offset.

Thanks for your comments. Good luck and let us know if stiffening the rear helps with your torque steer.
« Last Edit: March 13, 2018, 08:32:40 PM by Rosebud »
Rosebud
...the sled, not the flower
https://www.facebook.com/PoserMotorSports

Offline joakwin

Re: Torque Steer a Problem?
« Reply #19 on: March 13, 2018, 10:58:13 PM »
i always felt like the front end lifting up and transferring the load to the back caused the car to have more torque steer issues
stiffer springs in the back doesn't let the weight transfer to happen, helps to keep the front end down

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0RlktUKNJq0

Wow. That's some torque steer all right! I know what you mean about feeling like if you can keep the front from lifting it might minimize torque steer. I'm not sure that it would, but it sure seems like it might. I can tell you that those huge wheel offsets aren't helping things, but with the kind of power your producing, you may not have enough rubber of the road to run skinner tires w/ less offset.

Thanks for your comments. Good luck and let us know if stiffening the rear helps with your torque steer.

the yellow clubby in the video was running a vauxhall motor and those things make in the 150-160tq range

its helps a lot, i have a buddy with a k20 mini and his spring are heavier then mine and he has his own alignment set up for home use and it has helped to fight the torque problems, and he runs 10 inch dia wheels with slicks on the track


high power set ups pull the wheels, toe changes as the suspension travels

its been a long time since ive messed around with the A series motor, now a days for me its only honda drivetrains
D16z6 Automatic, 4 wheel disc brakes, deseamed shell