Author Topic: No start - No Fuel  (Read 2164 times)

Offline Flyinace2000

No start - No Fuel
« on: March 10, 2018, 08:47:46 PM »
Hello Experts!

After finishing up my carb refresh things have been going well.  Not much driving in the winter with all the snow/salt in NJ.  But 2 weeks ago the weather looked nice enough for a drive.  Started car right up, went back in side to move laundry around to let her warm up for 2 or 3 minutes, came back and she was off.  Would not restart.  Thought she was out of gas, so i emptied my 2 spare cans of fuel (about 2-3 gallons). Tank reads 1/2. 

Today did some more digging.  Confirmed spark (visually and physically, ouch).  Next i opened up the float bowl, nearly bone dry.  This was after cranking for 15-20 seconds 2 or 3 times. 

Bad fuel pump or clogged line?  My fuel pump is still the original (or at least original style).  Should I go electric?

Offline 94touring

Re: No start - No Fuel
« Reply #1 on: March 10, 2018, 08:51:39 PM »
I always go electric. Those mechanical ones seem to fail too often for my taste and are a pain to swap when they do fail.

Offline MiniDave

Re: No start - No Fuel
« Reply #2 on: March 10, 2018, 09:23:53 PM »
I agree.....the only PITA part of installing an electric is running the power wire back to the pump, but once it's done you don't have to worry about it again.
1989 Cooper Racing Green
2009 Clubman S
1969 Jaguar XK-E FHC
2004 Audi Allroad 2.7 TT

Offline MPlayle

Re: No start - No Fuel
« Reply #3 on: March 10, 2018, 09:26:23 PM »
Also, make sure the float valve is freed.  Modern fuel will go "sticky" when sitting for a couple of weeks.

You can verify the fuel pump by disconnecting the line at the carb (float bowl) and crank it to see if the pump is sending fuel to that point.  That will also verify if the float valve is the culprit.


Offline Flyinace2000

Re: No start - No Fuel
« Reply #4 on: March 11, 2018, 07:21:12 AM »
Also, make sure the float valve is freed.  Modern fuel will go "sticky" when sitting for a couple of weeks.

You can verify the fuel pump by disconnecting the line at the carb (float bowl) and crank it to see if the pump is sending fuel to that point.  That will also verify if the float valve is the culprit.

Don't think that is the problem.  I removed the float bowl lid and it was empty.  Also the float and needle were just cleaned and refurbished 2 weeks ago. Everything was moving fine.

I agree.....the only PITA part of installing an electric is running the power wire back to the pump, but once it's done you don't have to worry about it again.

Does it need to go in the rear of the car?  Can it be installed on the firewall opposite where the mechanical unit is installed?

Offline Willie_B

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Re: No start - No Fuel
« Reply #5 on: March 11, 2018, 07:44:47 AM »

[/quote]
Does it need to go in the rear of the car?  Can it be installed on the firewall opposite where the mechanical unit is installed?
[/quote]

Depends on the pump. Most are made to to be close to the tank and push the fuel, others can be far away and pull the fuel.

Offline 94touring

Re: No start - No Fuel
« Reply #6 on: March 11, 2018, 09:01:40 AM »
They typically need fuel to gravity feed to the pump, unless you have an in tank pump pushing to an inline further down stream.

Offline MiniDave

Re: No start - No Fuel
« Reply #7 on: March 11, 2018, 11:00:27 AM »
I'm not sure it matters, when I got Buzz he had a pump up on the firewall that worked fine - when it worked. Most electric pumps are made to push, not pull.....as I was on the road on a Mini run I first tried mounting the cheap O'Reilys replacement pump back on the firewall but I could not get it to prime, so I disconnected the inlet hose and stuck it in a can of gas - it primed immediately and from then on worked fine, but when I replaced it with a better one I moved it to the rear subframe.

I just zip tie the power wire to the fuel line and run it back to the pump from the fuse that's only hot when the key is on. Most modern electric pumps draw very little current so a 14 ga or even 16 ga wire is more than enough for that distance.

You might try mounting it up front - but you may have to prime it first - then see how it does. The other negative of having it on the firewall is that some of the little buggers are pretty noisy and you can hear it thumping or whining away.

Postscript - the original pump I removed off Buzz now supplies my engine test stand and works perfectly!   8.gif
« Last Edit: March 11, 2018, 11:08:41 AM by MiniDave »
1989 Cooper Racing Green
2009 Clubman S
1969 Jaguar XK-E FHC
2004 Audi Allroad 2.7 TT

Offline Flyinace2000

Re: No start - No Fuel
« Reply #8 on: March 11, 2018, 05:31:15 PM »
I'm not sure it matters, when I got Buzz he had a pump up on the firewall that worked fine - when it worked. Most electric pumps are made to push, not pull.....as I was on the road on a Mini run I first tried mounting the cheap O'Reilys replacement pump back on the firewall but I could not get it to prime, so I disconnected the inlet hose and stuck it in a can of gas - it primed immediately and from then on worked fine, but when I replaced it with a better one I moved it to the rear subframe.

I just zip tie the power wire to the fuel line and run it back to the pump from the fuse that's only hot when the key is on. Most modern electric pumps draw very little current so a 14 ga or even 16 ga wire is more than enough for that distance.

You might try mounting it up front - but you may have to prime it first - then see how it does. The other negative of having it on the firewall is that some of the little buggers are pretty noisy and you can hear it thumping or whining away.

Postscript - the original pump I removed off Buzz now supplies my engine test stand and works perfectly!   8.gif


Thanks for the feedback.  I'm going to do a quick test by feeding the pump from a gas can from the front of the car to rule out a clogged line. 

Otherwise i'm thinking FACET STANDARD SOLID STATE and mounting it in rear subframe somewhere.
http://minispares.com/product/Classic/Fuel/Pumps/SS501.aspx?1303&ReturnUrl=/shop/classic/Fuel/Pumps.aspx|Back%20to%20shop

Offline Flyinace2000

Re: No start - No Fuel
« Reply #9 on: March 11, 2018, 09:11:02 PM »
I'm not sure it matters, when I got Buzz he had a pump up on the firewall that worked fine - when it worked. Most electric pumps are made to push, not pull.....as I was on the road on a Mini run I first tried mounting the cheap O'Reilys replacement pump back on the firewall but I could not get it to prime, so I disconnected the inlet hose and stuck it in a can of gas - it primed immediately and from then on worked fine, but when I replaced it with a better one I moved it to the rear subframe.

I just zip tie the power wire to the fuel line and run it back to the pump from the fuse that's only hot when the key is on. Most modern electric pumps draw very little current so a 14 ga or even 16 ga wire is more than enough for that distance.

You might try mounting it up front - but you may have to prime it first - then see how it does. The other negative of having it on the firewall is that some of the little buggers are pretty noisy and you can hear it thumping or whining away.

Postscript - the original pump I removed off Buzz now supplies my engine test stand and works perfectly!   8.gif


Thanks for the feedback.  I'm going to do a quick test by feeding the pump from a gas can from the front of the car to rule out a clogged line. 

Otherwise i'm thinking FACET STANDARD SOLID STATE and mounting it in rear subframe somewhere.
http://minispares.com/product/Classic/Fuel/Pumps/SS501.aspx?1303&ReturnUrl=/shop/classic/Fuel/Pumps.aspx|Back%20to%20shop


Looks like I can get a Mr. Gasket 42S for $40 that is rated 2-3.5 Psi from AutoZone down the street.  Might get 2 rubber mounts and some longer studs to mount.  Should i drill into my frame or boot floor?

Offline 94touring

Re: No start - No Fuel
« Reply #10 on: March 11, 2018, 09:33:34 PM »
Drill into the subframe, though it probably has a hole or two already there to get you started.

Offline MPlayle

Re: No start - No Fuel
« Reply #11 on: March 11, 2018, 09:39:09 PM »
I used the Mr. Gasket 42S fuel pump on the Mini I converted from fuel injection to carb.  It worked just fine - has the required low pressure and high volume.


Offline jedduh01

Re: No start - No Fuel
« Reply #12 on: March 12, 2018, 10:53:07 AM »
Are you 100% sure the tank has gas ?

IMO.   I'm a proponent of KEEPING the mechanical pump =  all the workings and pipes and tupes are already there +and they have worked for 30 - 40 Years?  why re engineer?

Youll still be working behind the engine block  to 're route the fuel hoses to the new setup.

   A electric DOES have its benefits too,. but a mechanical is still Reliable.  in my experience with multiple Mini's  i've replaced the Same amount of electric pumps as for Mechanical ones
 ... ( mr gasket pumps from advance/autozone get Crappy reviews too)

Facet (low pressure ) is the one to get if you go electrical.

 Ive also heard of the ethanol in gas possibly causing float needles to stick.

 

Offline MiniDave

Re: No start - No Fuel
« Reply #13 on: March 12, 2018, 11:22:20 AM »
I'm afraid I have to agree on the Mr. Gasket pumps....if you get one that works you're OK, but you may go thru three to get one that does work - I did.

Get the Faucet block instead......they have a good rep.

The advantage to the electric is that you never have to worry about filling the crankcase with fuel from a ruptured diaphragm.

 My attitude is as long as the mechanical works stick with it (my 89 has a mechanical pump still) , but carry an electric back up along with some hose and a long wire, then if it fails on the road you can at least get home again.
1989 Cooper Racing Green
2009 Clubman S
1969 Jaguar XK-E FHC
2004 Audi Allroad 2.7 TT

Offline Jimini II

Re: No start - No Fuel
« Reply #14 on: March 12, 2018, 11:30:08 AM »
Tow Joe (rip) and i installed an electric pump in his boot next to the tank on the rear seat support so no chopping of the fuel lines and no bad weather to keep hitting it easy peasy.
For power we took the UK fog light wire (not required in the US and he had removed it already) and used the dash switch to power it.
This helps in a couple of ways one as a anti theft device as the switch has to be on to work the pump and two if for whatever reason (long term storage maybe) and you want to empty the float bowl just turn it off and let it run out of fuel.

Offline MiniDave

Re: No start - No Fuel
« Reply #15 on: March 12, 2018, 11:58:18 AM »
The only negatives to doing it that way are if it leaks and fills the boot with fuel, and you can hear it pumping away. Admittedly the chances of a leak are small, but I prefer to keep the gas out of the passenger and boot compartments if possible.

Dash switch is a good idea.

Too bad about Joe, the cancer took him so fast!
1989 Cooper Racing Green
2009 Clubman S
1969 Jaguar XK-E FHC
2004 Audi Allroad 2.7 TT

Offline Jimini II

Re: No start - No Fuel
« Reply #16 on: March 12, 2018, 04:55:47 PM »
Actually there was no noise from the pump it was rubber mounted but i can't remember the brand offhand.
I hear you on the leaks but leaks are leaks they are a pita whether they leak on the newly painted garage floor, into the engine or in the trunk wherever they occur. I personally like jedduh am fine with the stock mechanical pumps.

Yes Joe did go quickly but with cancer that may have been a good thing, sure do miss talking and working with him though.

Offline Flyinace2000

Re: No start - No Fuel
« Reply #17 on: March 12, 2018, 09:21:12 PM »
Thanks all.  I bought the 42S from Mr. Gasket, some longer stanless bolts and large rubber corks to help isolate.  I'll install on Saturday.

Offline bikewiz

Re: No start - No Fuel
« Reply #18 on: March 13, 2018, 06:05:04 PM »
Here's a question the wiring diagram gives the color for power to the fuel pump as white, the BS-Au7 says white w/purple for fuel pump #1 white w/green for fuel pump#2(the only reference to fuel pumps in the code) which is it? My inclination is to use white/purple.

Offline MiniDave

Re: No start - No Fuel
« Reply #19 on: March 13, 2018, 06:23:35 PM »
Are you talking about using an existing wire, or adding one? If adding one I use red......
1989 Cooper Racing Green
2009 Clubman S
1969 Jaguar XK-E FHC
2004 Audi Allroad 2.7 TT

Offline bikewiz

Re: No start - No Fuel
« Reply #20 on: March 13, 2018, 06:40:18 PM »
I'm adding a wire. This why I ended up with problems in the harness under the slam panel, someone used a red wire instead of blue/white which created a bunch of confusion because red is side and tail lamp feed which when I had everything apart didn't make sense until I traced the red to a splice into blue/white...if I run a red wire back to the pump then "technically" it's the tailight feed (kind of going in the same direction) if someone was inclined to fault trace. My feeling is white/purple at least if someone looks at the code it would refer to fuel pump#1. The wire is cheap enough less than $5 for 12'.

Offline MiniDave

Re: No start - No Fuel
« Reply #21 on: March 13, 2018, 08:39:59 PM »
I'm all for using the right wire, I just usually don't have any so I use what I have - but I def see your point.
1989 Cooper Racing Green
2009 Clubman S
1969 Jaguar XK-E FHC
2004 Audi Allroad 2.7 TT

Offline MPlayle

Re: No start - No Fuel
« Reply #22 on: March 13, 2018, 11:26:52 PM »
That is why I use zip ties with the label tab.  I mark everything with its purpose.  I even label all of the wires in any new harness I install.


Offline jeff10049

Re: No start - No Fuel
« Reply #23 on: March 17, 2018, 02:47:14 PM »
We have one of these at the shop and print on shrink tube and label the wire. It looks really clean and professional. You can get less expensive printers that will print on shrink tube under $100 worth haveing if you do much wiring.

https://www.ebay.com/p/Brother-PTE500-Industrial-Handheld-Labeling-Tool-W-Auto-Cutter/2254444348?iid=301774474379

Everything we do is white wire labeled with an id description at each end and a number evey foot for tracing purposes.

The ends will say something like "VIM IGN FEED + #56" and then #56 every foot to the other end. As to not use up tons of shrink tube printing the full description every foot.
Colors are useless when you have 1,000 wires. But on something like the mini harness i see the point but a labeled wire of any color is a for sure way to avoid confusion.

Some of the sub systems we work on use color codes and when you get used to wires just saying what they are the colors kinda suck or if you are color blind like one of our employees was.

My mini still has the electric su pump on the rear sub I cleaned the points and it's worked ever since.

Offline Flyinace2000

Re: No start - No Fuel
« Reply #24 on: March 24, 2018, 10:33:03 PM »
Finally getting to this project.  Started by bypassing the mechanical pump with some new fuel line.  I bought a blanking plate so i could remove it but couldn't for the life of me figure out how to get it out without removing the engine.  Is there a trick?  Otherwise i'm just going to leave it there.