Parts decisions - input please

Started by BruceK, October 06, 2016, 11:30:34 AM

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BruceK

Just about to purchase some front wheel bearings (yes, Dave, it's taken me a while to get around to this :) ), and I am struck by the huge price difference on MiniSpares site between genuine Timken bearings, which I know are good, and the non-genuine ones, which I've heard are okay.   The price difference is stark.   Non-genuine bearings are £11.50 per side, and Timken ones are £42.17 per side.  So, about £60 additional (!) for both side side.  Converted to US$, this means to use Timken front wheel bearings is about $110, and to use the other ones is about $30.  So about a $80 difference.   

I will also replace the rear bearing too, but I don't see Timken as an option from MS.  They do offer non-genuine rear bearings, and this special 'modified' kit as well:   

http://www.minispares.com/product/Classic/Drivetrain/Wheel%20bearings/GHK1805.aspx
 

Thoughts?

Also, on my car the rubber front subframe mounts are completely shot - especially the ones at the top of the strut towers. Not too surprising for a 28 year old car.   I don't want to go with solid mounts, but I am trying to decide between the regular rubber mounts, and the poly mounts.   My Mini driving is for pleasure only - no autocross, etc. so my interest in the poly mounts is basically focused on whether they will last longer then the stock rubber mounts.   Basically, I'm looking for mount that will last 10 years or so.  I've got a feeling that the stock ones will be fine, but I wanted to get seek the opinions of others.

Thanks in advance!
1988 Austin Mini
2002 MINI Cooper S
1992 Toyota LiteAce (JDM)
1997 Jeep Wrangler Sahara

Merlin

I think that the Timken Quality is beyond stellar. I would not risk possible damage on an OK bearing, especially for $110 difference.

I will say that you can find the Timken bearings for much cheaper. I pulled the bearing part number and was able to get them from my bearing supplier for half the price listed on those sites.

Ill try to pull the part number this evening and see if my supplier still has them.
Engineering the Impossible

MiniDave

#2
I bought the cheapies, both front and rear.....that's what I put in Buzz too and those have at least 20K on them by now, so I don't know what the issue is.......Don's done 25K or more on his non-Timkens too. I suppose if you can get Timkens for a reasonable price, I'd probably do that but remember you need the right spacer and seals too.

The only difference I could see in that kit for the rears is the addition of the o-ring, and while I'm sure the engineers found a good reason to do that, 4 million plus Minis don't have it and they get around just fine.

I'd buy the poly mounts, they'll probably last longer than you own the car. How did you determine the mounts were bad? I can't even see them on my car.

BTW, replacing the upper control arms and shafts on these late model cars with the subframe in the car is one bitch kitty! You can't even remove the top subframe bolt on the right side without taking out the wiper motor! Luckily, I was able to get the upper control arm shaft out and remove the arm without using the tool to compress the rubber spring, but if those had been new springs no way in hell I was getting them out! Changing out the rubbers every 20K? No way Jose!
Complete failure at retirement

1989 Cooper Racing Green
2009 Clubman S
2014 Audi Allroad

John Gervais

I've felt your pain, Dave! (http://www.restorationmini.com/forum/index.php?topic=955.0)

I was able to wiggle a socket between the wiper motor and the bulkhead brace, adding an extension after the socket was in place.  I did have to remove the washer pump though.  I couldn't install the rebound buffer without using the cone compressor to compress the new cones - and re-installing the arms & hilos was an absolute bear of a job. 

SoCalMiniFan has my old cones supporting the rear of her mini, so they weren't dead yet - why did I feel compelled to upgrade them?!?!? 

There's a lot  of negative feedback on The Mini Forum regarding the MSC non-genuine (ie. Timken) wheel bearings, but I have a sneaky suspicion that most of the failures reported are due to over-greasing them.  Personally, I'd probably try the non-genuine bearings, but fortunately have a set of new rear Timken's in a box o'bits; not sure if I still have a pair of fronts.

Regarding which subframe mounts to go with, I'd probably go with the poly, but I really don't know how well they last.  I'm using solid aluminum mounts on the towers and teardrops, and standard rubber mounts on the toeboard.  Handling improved dramatically, but there is a bit more cabin vibration and noise transmitted - another reason why I retained the standard toeboard mounts, less vibration.
- Pave the Bay -

MiniDave

#4
John, I had forgotten about your thread on the very same thing!  :-[  As far as torqueing those nuts on either end of the shaft, I just get my biggest 3/4" box end on one end and my biggest 19mm box end on the other and give them what for.....seems to work just fine!

The left side is fairly easy on my car compared to the right, I think I have a plan worked out in my head on how I'm going to re-assemble the right one - it won't be pretty, or easy - but without struggling with the cones and supports it should be easier than you had it.

As far as the bearings go, there has been a lot of sturm und drang on TMF about the non-Timkens and it certainly gave me pause when it was time to buy mine recently - all I can say is in my experience they haven't been a problem, but then I torque the big axle nut with my impact wrench!  ;D

Complete failure at retirement

1989 Cooper Racing Green
2009 Clubman S
2014 Audi Allroad

John Gervais

#5
I was reading greasing instructions in my downloaded Timken catalogue - overgreasing overheats the bearing as the grease hardens, so I suspect some of the TMF guys have just done it like they'd learned 'on the street'.


Some interesting reading attached -
- Pave the Bay -

MiniDave

Yes, over-greasing stops the rollers from turning and causes them to gall, quickly ruining the bearing. A lesson my boss learned the hard way...he came into the plant one night and heard a bearing singing on the compressor motor - this is a 125hp electric motor with bearings 8" in diameter - so he grabs my grease gun (the wrong one BTW, this one had Moly grease in it which kills the insulation on the windings in an electric motor) and proceeded to pump one whole cartridge of grease into the bearing. A month later I had to have the motor rebuilt, new bearings and new windings.

He never greased anything in the plant after that.
Complete failure at retirement

1989 Cooper Racing Green
2009 Clubman S
2014 Audi Allroad

John Gervais

Speaking of grease guns, and I should probably start a new thread, but hey, since you brought it up..

Is there any good way to store grease guns without them leaking?  I've got 2 high-quality grease guns - one German-made pistol-type with moly (Castrol MX3) for the ball joints and one Danish-made lever-type with high-temp grease (Castrol LMX) for the upper arms/radius arms and they drip/leak, even if I pull the handle back and bleed the pressure off.  I have them hanging horizontally on a pair of hooks on the wall, one above the other.

Is this a common problem???
- Pave the Bay -

MiniDave

Yes, the oil in the grease tends to gravitate out of the matrix, I keep mine in 1 gal bottles with a large cut out so it contains the oil, but it will leak out. I get less leakage with the nozzle down......
Complete failure at retirement

1989 Cooper Racing Green
2009 Clubman S
2014 Audi Allroad

John Gervais

Cool - sounds like I'm on more or less the right track - I've been using a rubber glove over the nozzle and covering the 'head'.  Messy tools...
- Pave the Bay -

BruceK

Quote from: MiniDave on October 06, 2016, 02:56:25 PM
I'd buy the poly mounts, they'll probably last longer than you own the car. How did you determine the mounts were bad? I can't even see them on my car.

Dave, remember just before the MiniMeet when I had a hell of a time trying to affix my towbar mount on my Mini?  I could not get the bolts that go through the front subframe mounts to line up - it was all out of alignment.  That was because all of the rubber subframe mounts had deteriorated.  I had to lift the Mini by the body, and loosen the upper subframe bolts so the weight of the engine rotated the subframe down so I could install the front bolts for the towbar.    I tightened them back up, but now they squeak a whole lot while driving.

I'm leaning toward the poly subframe mounts, but it looks like there is also a hybrid version, part solid, part rubber:  http://www.minispares.com/product/Classic/Suspension/Subframes/Front/C-STR640A.aspx   Has anyone tried this?


John, thanks for the bearing literature.  I think I'll buy some piece of mind and get the Timkens - I'm not much of a gambler on the no-name ones.   And I didn't realize the dangers of overfilling the bearings - makes perfect sense when you think about it. 
1988 Austin Mini
2002 MINI Cooper S
1992 Toyota LiteAce (JDM)
1997 Jeep Wrangler Sahara

John Gervais

That's an interesting kit.  I would have thought that one would want the hard plate between the subby and bulkhead to prevent the subby from 'shimmying', but of course, introducing more transmitted noise.  The product description says 'years of testing seems to have proved to be the best solution for road cars', so why not - give it a whirl!

Regarding the bearing grease, I know that my own Timken bearings are slightly over-greased, I didn't know about this prior to reading about non-genuine bearing failures on TMF.  Only then did I investigate.  I'm just too lazy to tear them apart - I probably will do so this winter, though.
- Pave the Bay -

MiniDave

Regarding the overgreasing......I would not worry about it in this case. In industrial bearings they usually are in a housing which traps the excess grease, in the front hubs on a Mini there is plenty of room for the extra grease to go into the center of the hub - as long as you don't pack the center of the hub full too.
Complete failure at retirement

1989 Cooper Racing Green
2009 Clubman S
2014 Audi Allroad