Car runs GREAT!!.... won't go into gear

[Funpig]

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I have a 998 that I have been building and have recently gotten it running spot on however it will not go into gear.  Everything is brand new from the pedal to the throwout arm as well a new clutch assembly and all adjustments are to spec. And when I mean to SPEC... no air in any of the hydraulic lines, .020 space at the stop bolt and 1/8" gap at the bottom of the clutch arm. When I start the car it will not go into gear at all however it makes a noise as if there is some metal making contact with another metal surface but it is not a grinding sound. 
Does this sound like I have put my clutch disc in backwards or is it something much deeper?  I have been scouring the internet for the past 3 days and I can't seem to find anything helpful.

Thanks
MikeB

[LilDrunkenSmurf]

That's almost 100% a clutch not disengaging. Easiest way to tell is if it goes into gear with the car off.

Throw it in first, try to start it, see if it lurches.

[MiniDave]

Sounds like you have a pre-Verto clutch? I know you can put the release bearing in backwards on a Verto and it will not shift (for obvious reasons)...it's possible to pull the cover in the car and check it out after you do LDS's test. If like he said you can shift it with the engine off, your problem is definitely in the clutch.

[Funpig]

It is all pre verto and it will go into gear when the engine is off.       Backwards clutch disc??   Is it as easy is taking off the tranny cover and reinstallling the clutch the right way?

[MiniDave]

Not quite, did you replace the clutch or did someone else?

You have to remove the flywheel, as the disc is on the backside of it....you'll need the special big ass puller to do that.

Check the release bearing first, it's pretty damn hard to get the disc in backwards - although I think it is possible.....

I don't know how far Decatur is from Liburn, but our own WillieB is sorta in your neighborhood, if you get stuck maybe he can help?

Edit Google maps says it's only about 1/2 hours drive.

[Funpig]

MiniDave
I replaced the clutch and everything while I had the motor out and I have the puller so no worries there.  What do I look for with the release bearing?  Lilburn is pretty close and WillieB and I have spoken through this forum a few times.  I may take your advice and reach out to him if I get stuck.  I guess I know what I am going to be doing this weekend!!
Anything else I need to be aware of?

Thanks again!
MikeB

[MiniDave]

I'm not sure you can put the pre-Verto in wrong, so back to the disc.....that pretty much is all that's left. But since you have to take the cover off first, inspect the bearing and make sure it's the correct one and that it turns freely......

[Funpig]

MiniDave,
Will do.   I even spoke with Jack from 7ent about the bearing and he assured me it was the right one but I do remember that the one I received was different than the one I took out.  I guess I can report when things are apart. 
Thanks guys!

MikeB

[Funpig]

Ok....  so i think I know what the problem is but I am having a difficult time sourcing info for its solution.       Got the cover off and the bearing wasn't secured to the release plunger.   No biggie.  Assembled that correctly with a new plunger and  bearing..While I was in there I noticed the rear seal was leaking so I went ahead and replaced that.     Here is where things stand...  it looks like the clutch and flywheel assembly is not working correctly as it seems to all pre clamped as a unit and I know that isn't the way it is supposed to be.  The straps on the flywheel have different degrees of bend to them. Are they supposed to be straight as in flat or have some bend to provide spring?? Are they supposed to have this???? 50.gif  This is making me feel like a complete MORON!!!
Can somebody please provide some insight or a link of the proper assembly of the straps to the flywheel.  I have 2 different "Bently" books but they don't cover this well. 

[MiniDave]

Was the disc in correctly? The part that sticks out on the disc goes towards the engine, not the flywheel.....

The straps aren't critical, they can be flat or angled, however they all should be the same.

How are you assembling the clutch? I put a long stud in the top of the back plate, put the flywheel and cover on then use the stud to pull the back plate forward so I can start the other bolts thru the cover into the back plate, then remove the stud and install the third bolt. Then tighten them evenly.....

You do not have to remove the bolts that hold the ends of the straps - but they should be a shoulder bolt.

[Funpig]

Yeah soooooo........  I think I have proven myself to indeed be a moron.  :-[  The clutch was installed correctly.   I think that what I did incorrectly is the plate/washer that the throwout bearing presses against was installed incorrectly.   I had the word TOP facing in rather than out towards the fender so I believe that the bearing was not making contact in order for the clutch to release.  It appears that there is very little movement for a clutch to go from engaged to dis engaged. 
I am hoping that this has got to be what the problem is because everything else is assembled to spec.

[MiniDave]

Yes, the throwout bearing only moves about .050" once it contacts the face of the clutch to disengage.

The good news is that once it's put together right, it will work!  4.gif

[jeff10049]

Glad you got it sorted, For future reference/readers if you have early car/clutch up to 62  they need to have the straps set flat (use washers) as the bolts tighten down hard against the strap on both ends and a angle down toward the fly wheel can actually pull on the pressure plate enough to cause a slipping clutch. Cars that tighten on the shoulder of the bolt leaving the strap floating don't matter as Dave said.

[MiniDave]

Sorry, I didn't mention that as he has a 998....which is a later engine.

[Funpig]

Well......  got it all back together and........  nothing.   50.gif  50.gif  50.gif  Still won't go into to gear.  I am at a loss.     The good news is that I can get the clutch out and replaced and all back together within an hour and a half.  Much quicker than the first time I attempted this.  Do it right or do it 3 or 4 times right!?!?!   

Minidave...  When I put the clutch in and flywheel I put the backing plate, clutch and flywheel on and then apply pressure through the starter hole to get the top and front side bolts started and then I get the bottom rear started and then tighten them down together.  Could this approach lead to the clutch being mis aligned?
Here is another thing... the shifter feels like I am trying to shift a dish rag.  Its looser than............(employ rude comment here)   Could this be where the problem is?
Clutch is new. 
Throw out bearing is new. 
Plunger is new.
Slave cylinder and line is new. 
Clutch reservoir is new. 
The straps were level and spaced once assembled. 
The throwout lever is set with a 1/8" gap and a .010 gap at the stop.

Thoughts guys???

Thanks again.
Moron Mike   4.gif

[MiniDave]

No, since the disc is already centered on the mainshaft, you would have a noticeable wobble if it somehow wasn't "right".

When you push the clutch pedal in, the lever arm is moving, right?

What kind of shift linkage, rod change, remote or pudding stirrer?

The only other thing I can think of is the disc part of the main shaft isn't able to spin freely on the crank shaft somehow.

I think you need to get WillieB over there for another set of eyes on the problem.

[Funpig]

The lever arm is moving as it should.  Bled the master 3 or 4 times to be certain.  Have a strong pedal and I can watch the lever arm moving.   
It is a rod change set up.   
The only last thing that I can find that it could be is if the flywheel is hanging up on the locking assembly of the primary gear.  I am going out this morning to
take things back apart to find out.

if it isn't that I am at a total loss and I am going to have to get in touch with Mr. WilieB.

MikeB

[Funpig]

Ok...  So here is the flywheel with the straps.  They aren't perfectly level but there is room for movement for the clutch to be free of the flywheel and backing plate.   Should this have spacers in it to even it out more or does this look acceptable?

[jeff10049]

Those are fine.

[jeff10049]

Does the primary gear turn by hand on the crankshaft?

[Funpig]

Yes it does.  In neutral it is free and then in gear it stays.   Everything seems good there.

[jeff10049]

I had a problem like this once on a customer car not a mini but still could be relative.
Put a new clutch in and damn thing would not release took it back out and on careful inspection the clutch disk had been dropped on edge and mushroomed the material slightly, that little bit was enough to make it drag and to be impossible to shift. 
When it was together did you try putting the car in gear and then starting with the clutch depressed to see if it is releasing at all yet still dragging?

[jedduh01]

Have you backed the Large Clutch WOK cover plunger stop nuts off ALL The way?  and operated + bled clutch?  (remove them from the equation?)

how new are ALL of the Clevis Pins in the system?  Wear at all these pins will not much a clutch JUST enough to not disengage.
Also The Pushrod Hole that the clevis goes thru  + the holes in the Push rod on the Clutch Master All wear ovals loosing distance.

You Can also try a spacer  (or a longer push rod ) in the clutch slave to get a bit more lever arm throw...  this indicates wear + Ive had to lengthen Slave push rods  And a common other apporach is to bend the lever arm for more Push.   Make sure all your pivots are fresh.

[Funpig]

Clutch has been bled 5 times.  No air.  Clevis pins are good.  Holes are round.   Just got everything back together and I think I may have found my culprit. 

Start car.
Push in clutch to floor and when trying to put into gear motor slows down.  I believe that this is an indication that it is trying to work just not getting enough throw.

Look at clutch pedal.  Its bent.  :-[  It is twisted and sits about 1/2'-3/4" lower than the brake pedal.   It looks like what is happening is that the floor/carpeting is stopping the pedal movement so that the clutch won't disengage all the way.   
I took out the pedal and straightened it but it still sits a bit lower than brake pedal and won't disengage.  Tonight I will put it out again and bend it so that the pedals are even and then go from there.
MikeB

[jedduh01]

If you take the carpet out = and get 'some' operation .. thats still a sign of not enough movement in all the joints combined.

Ive also had to replace the Throw Out Bearing Plunger and Arm due to wear + loss of throw.  It all adds up.  I would also consider a 'longer' pushrod even temporary. ( put a 1/4 nut inside+ to take up more Hydrolic space

Have also seen the Slave piston = push out and stop on the snap ring in the bore of the slave.  Something to check.