Author Topic: 67 MK-II Moke  (Read 54140 times)

Offline Willie_B

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Re: 67 MK-II Moke
« Reply #50 on: December 06, 2016, 08:17:05 PM »

I will also be ordering a new body shell to solve the issues from past flat-steel body repairs that are aging poorly.
Who are you ordering the shell from/thru? May be the only way to get the moke I have back on the road.

Offline MPlayle

Re: 67 MK-II Moke
« Reply #51 on: December 06, 2016, 11:21:22 PM »
This is the website for the outfit in the UK I have been emailing about the shell:

http://www.m-parts.co.uk

I have ordered some small parts from them as well.


Offline MPlayle

Re: 67 MK-II Moke
« Reply #52 on: December 08, 2016, 12:23:08 AM »
Okay, time to recap the ideas under consideration as the "short term" and "long term" plans for the Moke.

Background info:
The 850 is the original engine per the heritage certificate and the engine tag.  I am not setting out to have this be a "factory perfect" restoration.  I want it to be a nice, solid, driver with minor personal touches (the truck box for extra locking storage, some extra gauges).  The new shell is to fix past repairs that were made with flat sheet steel which are showing signs of rusting again.  I have been trying to keep from going overboard on the expenses as well, knowing the body shell and paint will be a major cost.


The original approach I had in mind:
a) Perform some mechanical enhancements over the winter and get them sorted before the "Spring Drive", keeping the current body shell essentially "as-is" with only minor additions (seat belts, truck box).
b) Order a new body shell to arrive in the spring (after the drive), spend spring and summer refurbishing the running gear and swapping into the new shell, making any further body related enhancements desired (possible roll bar, custom top, etc.)

This is still the basic plan.  The content of step 'a' has been in slight flux and the extent of step 'b' is still being determined.

Original plans for 'a' were:
1) To "liven up" the existing 850 (install an unleaded 998 head with the rocker gear from the 850, new HS-4 carb on factory 998 intake/exhaust manifold), leave the transmission "as-is".
2) Upgrade the front brakes to 7.5" disks and add spacers to the rear as needed.
3) Possible additional suspension upgrades: fully adjustable front (control rods & lower arms), adjustable brackets for the rear, new rubber cones and knuckles (possibly also adding hi-los).

I already ordered (and received) most of the parts for #1, 2 & 3 (Head, carb/manifold, gasket set, full disk kit - already assembled, rear spacer kit, brake lines and washers, spin on filter kit, tappet cover gaskets and bolt seals, throttle and choke cables, adjustable front lower arms + shafts + bushings, adjustable control rods + bushings, and adjustable rear suspension brackets).

I also ordered a new wiring harness for going into the new shell.

The "distraction" dilemma:
Where I keep getting "distracted" is whether to stay with #1 or upgrade the engine to a full 998 (or bigger)?  And if I upgrade, do I stay with the existing transmission (with its 3.76 final drive) or do I also go with upgrading the transmission to 4-synchro and install the 3.1 final drive that was sent with the Moke?

Will the 998 from Bryans 74 drop onto my existing transmission without clearance issues?  I could use my existing new head/carb/intake to refurb his engine (ensuring it being unleaded fuel ready), but then I would have the 850 block and later transmission left over.

Should I stick with the original plan of enhancing the 850?  Should I do just the minimal work between now and when the new shell arrives (enhance just the engine and save everything else for when apart for the swap to the new shell)?  Should I do as much of the engine and suspension work I can beforehand?

I guess I am calling for "help" as I've lost focus while waiting for New York DMV to process the seller's paperwork to make it "transferable" so I could then submit it for getting the Texas title and registration.  Now that I've submitted the paperwork for the Texas title/registration, it is time to regain focus and begin enjoying and working on it.

What is some advice regarding all of the questions above?  Please help me regain proper focus.

Thanks.

Offline MiniDave

Re: 67 MK-II Moke
« Reply #53 on: December 08, 2016, 09:11:08 AM »
If it's a "driver", then keeping the original engine in it is a moot point - you're after a vehicle that's fun and reliable to drive. to that end getting some more power and a smoother shifting fully synchro'd transmission seems like a no brainer to me.

If you decide later that it's worth more with the original motor/trans you still have it and can sell it with the car.

If you want to keep the magic wand transmission sending it to Guessworks to be rebuilt with later A+ gears seems like a great investment...4 synchros, quieter gears (don't know how much value this is in a Moke  ;D ) and bettter ratios to go along with the later 998 motor. I don't think an 850 will pull a 3:1 final drive very well, Guessworks puts a 3:44 in their rebuilds unless it's a big block motor. You have to think of where and how you'll be driving this car - it won't be on endless highway runs, will it? If it were mine and I wanted to go to an event with it far away, I would tow it.

Going from 33 (or less) hp (850)0 to 40 or more (998) also seems worthwhile.....the advantage of the 998 is that it looks like an 850, so the car retains it's original look but runs better. OTOH, only Mini geeks will be able to tell the difference between that and a 1275. So if going from 33 to 40+ HP, is good, going to 55+ (1275) would be even better! The problem there is finding a good one to build/buy and retaining the magic wand gearshift you want.

(I have a 1300 with remote gearbox that I can sell (Hmmm, you buy it, I rebuild t for you and bring it with me on the spring run?) , but I wonder if it isn't less expensive to buy one already done with the new gearbox straight from 7 Ent - then just drop it in? Of course then you lose the magic wand.......wonder if 7ent would just sell a rebuilt 1275 engine and save you enough to get the trans from Guessworks?)
« Last Edit: December 08, 2016, 09:20:52 AM by MiniDave »
1989 Cooper Racing Green
2009 Clubman S
1969 Jaguar XK-E FHC
2004 Audi Allroad 2.7 TT

Offline jedduh01

Re: 67 MK-II Moke
« Reply #54 on: December 08, 2016, 10:22:55 AM »
Reads to me like your'e looking down a deep rabbit hole....of decisions and choices.
 
 Body = Moke panels are easy to buy + weld + fit and finish... you just will ne a shop that wants to work with it.

Getting a whole shell== people talk about it = but ive never seen one actually floated across the ocean. Please do us all a favor and get a full quote.. Brexit is helping the purchase cost for sure.  but you also will have to consider the Freight + deliery to texas brokerage  port  tranport fees  etc. 

  I really doubt Mparts HAS shells on the shelf ready to ship = I BET the are built to order.. find out the details for sure.

Taking a working one off the road == that too can be a long road without a moke!!! think hard!



As you now have driven and used in as is condition and you now  know you want to upgrade.
 850 on drums = no problem. slow every way.

  998 on drums = STILL no problem... but disks are 'better"

       I guess... Ive never outdone my drums because in SPIRITIED DRIVES with the small motors the Moke is a momentum car... use the brakes your loosing speed. Lack of horsepower and engine power you need to keep that momentum up.
   My 998 can do the same work as a 1275 .. just a LITTLE less grunt up the mountains = Hills=  no problem

either way = you'll never win a race without a vtec.  Little wheels and small tires keeps it fun!  Just like a gocart.

Either direction you take=  we will be watching!

Offline MPlayle

Re: 67 MK-II Moke
« Reply #55 on: December 08, 2016, 11:27:24 AM »
As for the new shell: I have already gotten a full quote.  The lead time is about 16 weeks (they build them to order), air freight to San Antonio, Texas was 1175 UKP - about $1500 USD at today's conversion rate, 6000 UKP for the shell (about $7550 USD).  Freight charges subject to change as the shipping quote is only good for 30 days.

Yes, I am looking at the proverbial "rabbit hole" and trying not to fall too far in.

I would not be putting the 3.1 final with the 850 - for the reasons stated.  That final would be for with at least a 998.  If staying with the 850, I would stay with the current, stock final which I believe is a 3.76.

As stated, I already have the parts to do the brake upgrade and "liven up" the 850 and most of the parts to upgrade the suspension.

It is deciding whether to go with engine change instead of "liven up" the 850.  MOre research to be done.

I'm beginning to consider gathering remaining parts as needed/desired and waiting until I have the new shell to do all the work as a single big project instead of in bits-n-pieces.

I'll be making the shell arrangements in the next couple of days regardless.


Offline MiniDave

Re: 67 MK-II Moke
« Reply #56 on: December 08, 2016, 12:18:31 PM »
So $9K delivered to Houston, then you have to go get it from there? Plus taxes, duty and entrance fees and whatever else they come up with?

I like the idea of doing the job in sub assemblies, then once it's all painted and wired up just bolt it all in and drive. I even like the idea of doing the engine now - whichever way you decide to go - so that part is done and proven, that way little chance of having to pull it back out of the freshly painted shell.

Will you prep/paint the shell or have someone do it for you?
« Last Edit: December 08, 2016, 03:39:28 PM by MiniDave »
1989 Cooper Racing Green
2009 Clubman S
1969 Jaguar XK-E FHC
2004 Audi Allroad 2.7 TT

Offline MPlayle

Re: 67 MK-II Moke
« Reply #57 on: December 08, 2016, 03:08:00 PM »
The quote was for air freight directly to San Antonio, not Houston.  Also the quote was for residential delivery at my current apartment.  As it would be just a shell, there would be minimal duty/taxes on it - considered as "parts".  I had already checked that out when I was considering ordering an Anderson Cub (Moke replica).

I usually like to do the job in sub assemblies as well for much the same reason.  Also, because I have usually been on an even tighter budget and could only order the parts for one step at a time versus gathering for the whole project.


Offline BruceK

Re: 67 MK-II Moke
« Reply #58 on: December 08, 2016, 05:31:13 PM »
Since you asked for opinions, here's some of mine.  Michael, please ignore as you see fit. :)

To me, a new Moke bodyshell seems like an extreme solution (both in expense, and in execution) to some problems that likely could be remedied much more easily by a skilled bodyman using some new panels and welding to fix the existing body faults.  With so many flat surfaces and no compound curves, the Moke body must be the single easiest vehicle ever made to do bodywork on.   Perhaps getting a quote first for refurbishing your existing bodyshell back to how it came from the factory would be helpful in making your decision before committing to an expensive new Moke bodyshell?  Plus, down the road I think the car will be worth more if it retains the original body.  And no way could it cost anywhere near the $9K for a new body.

I think an upgrade to a 998 is a good idea. The Moke is so perfectly un-aerodynamic with the flat front and wind-catching front fenders, that any extra power is helpful just to push it through the air, and/or useful at lower speeds in defensive driving situations. 

Regarding a change to the final drive, I don't think it makes much of a difference.   Getting back the issues of pushing a Moke through the air, the driver and passengers really get beat up by all the air buffeting at highway speeds.    The flat windshield and open cockpit mean it's unlike any other vehicle IMO, (and I've owned a bunch of convertibles and motorcycles to compare against a Moke) - there is no gentle, constant breeze, instead at high speeds it is a series of big wind buffets, so traveling at highway speeds gets extremely tiring and annoying in quick order.   What I'm saying is you might not drive it often at more than, say 55 mph, so keeping the current final drive may make it slightly quicker pulling away from a stop - not a bad thing in modern traffic.

Regarding upgrades to the suspension, my suggestion is to become familiar with the stock suspension first.  Since center of gravity is lower in a Moke than a regular Mini, and the driver is sitting on the vehicle rather than in it like with a regular Mini, it already feels like it is cornering on rails and there is a good sense of personal vulnerability when cornering aggressively.  In other words, I typically found my nerve gave out before the stock handling gave up.

One final thing you may want to consider is to fit the Oz-type side windshield pieces found on later Mokes.  I understand they really tackle the buffeting issue.  Yeah, it wouldn't be true to a British Moke style, but sometimes practicality wins out. 

Whatever you decide to do, I'm sure you're going to have a great Moke experience.  I often miss my Moke.




« Last Edit: December 08, 2016, 05:33:38 PM by BruceK »
1988 Austin Mini
2002 MINI Cooper S
2007 Triumph Bonneville

Offline MPlayle

Re: 67 MK-II Moke
« Reply #59 on: December 08, 2016, 08:37:43 PM »
Hi Bruce,

I actually do listen to other folks and consider what they are saying, so your opinions are appreciated.

As for the current body: both pontoons and all of the floors have been replaced with flat steel - sometimes covering flaking remnants of the original floors.  The welds holding the replacement floors in place are far from clean.  Some are "patches on patches" type approach and several places the patches are showing significant signs of further rusting.  A lot of the factory captive bolt locations have been "lost" - all of the factory seatbelt mounts are no longer present.  The front floor patches cover over the nuts for the steering rack U-bolts.  The subframe tails do not fully meet the floors and those blts/studs also appear to be "lost".  The front and rear panels are also slightly bowed in - the front enough to throw off the headlight alignments.

To me, it would be worth the extra cost to go for a whole new shell and get all of those mounting points back along with proper panels throughout.

Some of the others on this forum that have recently restored their Mokes may speak up and attest to the efforts/costs in doing theirs by panel replacement versus a new vintage correct shell.

The suspension upgrades planned are for making it possible to do full alignments - adjustable arms/brackets with standard bushings.  I plan on using rubber cones per stock and basic shocks if/when those get replaced.


Online 94touring

Re: 67 MK-II Moke
« Reply #60 on: December 08, 2016, 08:45:53 PM »
I will say once you're dealing with patches over patches, it's pretty hard to get it back looking good without spending a fortune.  One car in the shop currently suffers from this and some places you just have to cut your losses.

Offline MPlayle

Re: 67 MK-II Moke
« Reply #61 on: December 08, 2016, 09:26:53 PM »
If you look at the pictures in my album "Moke Body Issues" in the media section of this forum, you'll see some of why I am opting for the new shell.

I figure a little more for the new shell up front will be more cost effective in the long run.

I may discuss having our own "Captain Dan" do the paint job on it.


Online 94touring

Re: 67 MK-II Moke
« Reply #62 on: December 09, 2016, 07:25:17 AM »
Yeah gets to a point you have 9k+ in a body restoration, that no matter how good the work, just won't be like it came from the factory.  My clubman for example would be outrageously expensive for a customer to bring to me.  I don't mind my own time in it and realize it's going to be a fraken-mini sorta speak when it's done, but that's fine in this case for my intended purpose with the thing.

Offline MPlayle

Re: 67 MK-II Moke
« Reply #63 on: December 09, 2016, 08:54:44 AM »
I've had a couple of "franken-minis" before as well.  They were solid in their fashion and just as fun.  They met my needs/desires at the time.

This one "could" be left as it is, but the old floor remnants in the right side cubbies makes using them a bit iffy - too much chance of hands getting cut on ragged edges and the covered over steering rack bolts/nuts is unsettling.

I had to drill some drain holes in the floors and got rust powder for much of the drilling - not a good sign for those big floor patches either.

Besides, as I get into this one, the work will be therapeutic.


Offline BruceK

Re: 67 MK-II Moke
« Reply #64 on: December 09, 2016, 09:15:56 AM »
Okay, based upon the information provided by the owner as well as those of a knowledgeable Mini restorer, looks like a new bodyshell is, in fact, a great idea after all.    Plus, it would be so nice to know it is 'right' and without any compromises.

1988 Austin Mini
2002 MINI Cooper S
2007 Triumph Bonneville

Offline MPlayle

Re: 67 MK-II Moke
« Reply #65 on: December 13, 2016, 01:30:36 PM »
I think I have my long and short term plans for the Moke figured out.

Short Term:
- Suspension refurb/upgrade:
  - Adjustable front control rods
  - Adjustable front lower arms
  - New bushings
  - New rubber cones
  - New knuckle joints
  - Adjustable rear swing arm brackets
- Disk brake upgrade
  - 7.5" disk brakes
  - Spacers on rear to match
- Wheel refresh
  - Strip old paint and refinish
  - New tires

Long term:
- Engine upgrade to 998 with hybrid gearbox
  - Donor 998 from Bryan P.
  - Rebuilt unleaded head
  - Guessworks hybrid gearbox: magic wand shifter with updated 4-synchro A+ internals
  - 998 "refresh" performed by MiniDave
- New shell

I know I should be able to have most of the Short Term items done before the Spring Drive.  The Long Term items will be after the Spring Drive.


Offline MiniDave

Re: 67 MK-II Moke
« Reply #66 on: December 13, 2016, 05:15:50 PM »
All your short term stuff looks do-able in that time frame, and will result in a nice driving (if slow  ;D) Moke!
1989 Cooper Racing Green
2009 Clubman S
1969 Jaguar XK-E FHC
2004 Audi Allroad 2.7 TT

Offline MPlayle

Re: 67 MK-II Moke
« Reply #67 on: December 13, 2016, 06:02:52 PM »
I know it will reach 61 mph as it is now (as measured by gps - the speedometer is currently not working, supposedly needs new cable which was sent with it from seller).

(Note: That was also with the top down, so no "drag chute" effects involved.)


Offline MiniDave

Re: 67 MK-II Moke
« Reply #68 on: December 13, 2016, 06:31:59 PM »
I think your 998 engine plan is a good one, it will give you a performance boost where you need it but be reasonable for how you intend to use it.
1989 Cooper Racing Green
2009 Clubman S
1969 Jaguar XK-E FHC
2004 Audi Allroad 2.7 TT

Offline BruceK

Re: 67 MK-II Moke
« Reply #69 on: December 13, 2016, 10:28:41 PM »
I know it will reach 61 mph as it is now (as measured by gps - the speedometer is currently not working, supposedly needs new cable which was sent with it from seller).

(Note: That was also with the top down, so no "drag chute" effects involved.)

If that is the top speed now, I think your 850 might be pretty tired.   My 850 Moke would show an indicated 75 mph which, back in pre-GPS days, I believed it to be about 70 or so based upon having my wife drive next to me in a 'real car' and making hand signs to try to tell me the speed.  (No way could I hear her with all the wind noise).  :)
1988 Austin Mini
2002 MINI Cooper S
2007 Triumph Bonneville

Offline MPlayle

Re: 67 MK-II Moke
« Reply #70 on: December 13, 2016, 10:34:22 PM »
I don't know if the 61 is the top speed the current 850 will do, that was the top speed I have had it up to.

I was driving out to the Boerne "All British" car show, top down on a slightly chilly morning.  It was my first outing with it (still on the NY plates) and I did not want to push it too much being mostly "unknown" to me.

Offline MPlayle

Re: 67 MK-II Moke
« Reply #71 on: December 19, 2016, 12:37:06 PM »
New "hybrid" gearbox ordered and confirmed.  New shell ordered as well.

Time to get started on the "Short Term" list.


Offline jedduh01

Re: 67 MK-II Moke
« Reply #72 on: December 19, 2016, 01:44:00 PM »
How much for the old shell?
  .. think about it.

Offline MPlayle

Re: 67 MK-II Moke
« Reply #73 on: December 19, 2016, 01:51:13 PM »
An interesting thought.  I had not yet begun to consider what to do with the old shell.

I'll PM you to continue this train of thought separately.


Online 94touring

Re: 67 MK-II Moke
« Reply #74 on: December 19, 2016, 05:04:54 PM »
How much for the old shell?
  .. think about it.

Crossed my mind too.