Author Topic: 67 MK-II Moke  (Read 39605 times)

Offline MPlayle

67 MK-II Moke
« on: October 02, 2016, 03:26:28 PM »
This will be the thread for the maintenance and modifications I'm contemplating on the Moke.

Input will be appreciated for ultimately determining what gets done.

The basics:
- 850cc engine with single HS-2 carb
- twin leading shoe drums in front
- u-joint/yoke outputs on the differential
- (supposed to be the original engine and transmission - still has the engine tag)
- has had some non-factory (flat) panel replacement in the floors and at least the left pontoon (old flakey panel remnants inside the right side cubbies)
- new basic top (no side curtains)
- original metal seats (new seat covers)
- older 145/sr/10 tires on MiniLite style wheels, steel spare (with new cover)
- decent "daily driver" respray

What I am contemplating:
- 7.5" disk brakes for front, spacer drums in rear
- change final drive from original (3.76?) to 3.1 (gear set already came with it)
- new tires (same size)
- potential engine upgrade (here is where input is desired)
- potential custom top with side curtains
- potential roll bar/cage (really not certain about this)

The goal of the upgrades is to improve the driving for around town and some trips (nearby car shows and maybe some of MiniDave's drives).

The initial ideas regarding the engine:
I think it would be a bit different to build on the existing 850 - not many seem to do anything to 850's, usually they swap to 1275's.  Parts costs likely near the same as for doing the same work on a 1275, but will be comparing against the potential of a complete swap to a 1275.
- stage-2 kit (something like this: Minisport stage 2 kit if it fits an 850 block)
- carb upgrade as needed with stage-2 kit
- possible mild cam upgrade.
- convert to spin on oil filter
- possible cooling system upgrade

Thoughts?

Offline MiniDave

Re: 67 MK-II Moke
« Reply #1 on: October 02, 2016, 04:13:20 PM »
Thoughts?

It's always like this, isn't it? I bought a nice driver level Mini and I'm changing the entire suspension, instruments, brakes and a whole host of stuff!  :-[

I'd say it depends, if this is a car that you will do lots of club style drives or events in then by all means upgrade everything. But if this is a car that get's driven to the occasional show and shine and spends the rest of the time in the garage, then I'd do maintenance only and leave it alone.
1989 Cooper Racing Green
2009 Clubman S
1969 Jaguar XK-E FHC
2004 Audi Allroad 2.7 TT

Offline MPlayle

Re: 67 MK-II Moke
« Reply #2 on: October 02, 2016, 04:34:40 PM »
Dave,

The Moke is a "daily driver" level car - definitely not a "show or garage queen".  The area 'All British' car show I try to attend annually is in Austin - about 90 miles away.  I prefer to drive to it rather than tow.  I plan on frequent "pleasure" driving as weather permits.

I also hope to have it running well enough for meeting up for some of your drives.

I plan on doing the disk brake upgrade no matter what else, just for better braking even in "around town" driving.

The engine upgrades are targeted for the longer distance driving in potential highway traffic.

I don't have any of the "tuning" books for reference in comparing the stage-1 and stage-2 kits for the 998 as to whether they will fit an 850.

As I see it presently:
A) "Warm up" the 850 permits re-use of most of what is there (distributor, generator, tranny, etc.) and may not cost as much up front.
B) Engine swap to 1275 will also need carb, intake, exhaust, distributor, pretty much all engine ancillaries in addition to the basic 1275.  It will also need either matched to the existing tranny or a comparable one for the shifter arrangement.

It has been many years since I was up to date on what could be done on the small bore engines and the parts compatibility between them.  Thus the request for thoughts from others.


Offline MiniDave

Re: 67 MK-II Moke
« Reply #3 on: October 02, 2016, 05:00:28 PM »
A 998 complete with tranny would be a good swap, a guy on MM was advertising he had 4 or 5 to sell pretty cheap. Rod change is doable but requires some engineering - my friend did it on his, basically you just chop about a foot out of the rods to make it short enough - he did a 998 swap too. As Dan can tell you a 998 can be a pretty hot little motor without much spent on it.

Dan also has a complete 1100 he can sell you if he wants to part with it. It has a remote shifter, and I think you can convert those back to the "pudding stirrer"......I have no idea of the condition of that motor at this point.

Gearing would be an issue using the 850 box, you'd be turning 5K at 60 mph! plus too and also, those only have synchro's on the top 3 gears - don't know if that matters to you or not.

I think the 998 head will fit the 850, but there may be issues with combustion chamber size...let me do a little research on this. I spoke to Keith Calver about this very thing (850 hop up) a few months ago, let me dig up my notes from him and I'll post them up....but it seems to me by the time you did everything to make it work it cost as much as a good used 1275 conversion.
1989 Cooper Racing Green
2009 Clubman S
1969 Jaguar XK-E FHC
2004 Audi Allroad 2.7 TT

Offline John Gervais

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Re: 67 MK-II Moke
« Reply #4 on: October 02, 2016, 05:03:00 PM »
Great moke!

850's can be fun, they had an 850 Sport model for the Australian (or was it New Zealand) market.  My mini originally had an 850 - I fitted a lightweight flywheel and pair of HS2 carbs in addition to a small-bore LCB and twin-box RC40.  It really woke up after that.  If I were to do it again, I'd use the C-AHT88 cylinder head and stick with the ordinary Maniflow freeflow exhaust manifold rather than the skinny LCB.

As the 850 doesn't use cam bearings, a 266 cam is probably as wild as you'd want to go.  I love small-bores...

(edit:  My old 850 was also born with an HS4 carb (and rod change gearbox), so an HS4 or HIF38 would certainly be better than the single HS2 and easier than twins.)
« Last Edit: October 02, 2016, 05:50:52 PM by John Gervais »
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Offline MPlayle

Re: 67 MK-II Moke
« Reply #5 on: October 02, 2016, 05:16:31 PM »
At some point, the transmissions got a synchro first gear, I don't recall when.  I don't know what this one has.

I seem to recall that much of what can be done to the 998 can also be done to the 850.  If I swapped, I would need the ancillaries (as noted above).

I have a 3.1 final drive gear set that came with the Moke which would drop the rpm.

I did not know the 850 did not use cam bearings.  I had not put much consideration into a cam change.  A mild road cam would be the most I would be considering if so.

Dave,

Please do post what notes you may find from your research.  They would be most appreciated.

First up are the bits necessary for passing state inspection and getting it titled/registered in Texas, then the brakes.

From there ... that is what this thread is for.

Cheers,
Michael Playle


Offline John Gervais

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Re: 67 MK-II Moke
« Reply #6 on: October 02, 2016, 05:34:50 PM »
I've attached some .pdf's from the MK1 Performance website - the 948cc Sprite engine BMC ST build is particularly interesting, as an 850 is the short-stroke version; similar relationship as 1098 stroked down to 998.

But yes, small-bore bits are largely interchangeable - cylinder heads, etc... - just remember though that some early blocks used a short impeller water pump and that small-bores use a different radiator support bracket.
- Pave the Bay -

Offline BruceK

Re: 67 MK-II Moke
« Reply #7 on: October 02, 2016, 07:09:19 PM »
And now, an opposing point of view:

Put new tires on it for safety purposes and get to know your new Moke it before changing things (I'm assuming it's drivable now). 

I say all of this because when I owned a Moke I thoroughly enjoyed driving it all over the Hill Country for years and it was a bone-stock 1966 model with the 850 and drum brakes.  So my advice is to drive it a bit, become familiar with it, and see how adequate you think the 850 is, as well as how the twin-leading shoe brakes perform.   At less than 1,200 lbs., Mokes are significantly lighter than regular Minis.  It takes less power make them go, and less brake force to stop them (twin-leading shoes are certainly not for race Minis, but if well-maintained, they are perfectly adequate for day-to-day driving).  Additionally, because you are sitting on a Moke rather than in it, the sensation of speed is greater, so you may not "need" to go faster.  By the way, the stock radiator dealt perfectly fine with the 850 and the Texas heat.

« Last Edit: October 02, 2016, 07:11:42 PM by BruceK »
1988 Austin Mini
2002 MINI Cooper S
2007 Triumph Bonneville

Offline MPlayle

Re: 67 MK-II Moke
« Reply #8 on: October 02, 2016, 08:09:59 PM »
Bruce,

Thanks for the advice.  Tires are one of the top of the list maintenance items.  It is basically driveable now - may need a little bit of tuning is all.

I guess I should state which items have priority:
- maintenance (wiper blades, etc.) for passing state safety inspection.
- tires
- brakes
- start enjoying

After the above few items, then I will start the considerations of whether and what to do about "long trip" stuff.  I'm gathering information first to plan ahead.


Offline John Gervais

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Re: 67 MK-II Moke
« Reply #9 on: October 02, 2016, 08:18:48 PM »
Like any mini, I'm sure it'll evolve as time and funds allow.  The basics are pretty much always a 'given', and at least most replacement ancillaries will suit eventual upgrades. 

In any event, you've landed a really cool ride, and just in time for giving sleigh rides this winter.   77.gif
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Offline MiniDave

Re: 67 MK-II Moke
« Reply #10 on: October 02, 2016, 08:53:40 PM »
Not much snow in San Antonio Texas......   ;D
1989 Cooper Racing Green
2009 Clubman S
1969 Jaguar XK-E FHC
2004 Audi Allroad 2.7 TT

Offline BruceK

Re: 67 MK-II Moke
« Reply #11 on: October 02, 2016, 09:58:49 PM »
Wiper blades?  With an "s" Plural?  As in two?   Oooooohhh, you got yourself a fancy Moke.     :)


My Moke had just the single wiper, driven off the wiper motor itself - same Lucas motor as used on Land Rovers.

On a serious note, one important change I'd recommend right away is to fit some bigger mirrors on either side of the windshield frame.  The ones in the photo look very small.   I found some large truck door mirrors that, while not original, really did the trick.   Because with a Moke you really want to get a very good idea of what is behind you since there is a 100% certainty it will be bigger and faster than you.   
1988 Austin Mini
2002 MINI Cooper S
2007 Triumph Bonneville

Offline MPlayle

Re: 67 MK-II Moke
« Reply #12 on: October 03, 2016, 07:50:12 AM »
Yes, plural on the wipers - has the same single-speed motor and cable drive as the rest of the early Minis.

I haven't measured, but the mirrors seem to be about 3"x5" and slightly convex.  I will certainly take that bit of advice under serious consideration.


Offline jedduh01

Re: 67 MK-II Moke
« Reply #13 on: October 03, 2016, 09:29:17 AM »
Solid plans overall just have to take it for what you want to do with it..

I have a 66 - with a 998- on a Puddin Stir Box..  Round town= everywhere except the interstate its a great machine. 
    at mini events= I have a bit more grunt than the other 850 Minis for the action. 

In  my opinion, if contemplating an engine change = don't mess with the 850.  ( i have my doubts a 3.10 would still pull OK in the 850. (luggy))

Drive it as is now = like said = get to know it.   then build your next power plant... My 998 is pretty stock + i have another 998 for ' oversize and performance rebuild that will in time replace the current powerplant in mine. for a few more ponies.

 I might have a line on a "core" 998 bottom end that needs full refurbishment if you're interested ( a customer of mine, he doesn't really want it.)

For sure=  Make it eat and breathe better on the 850 should benefit  but too = if you're investing in the 850 why waste the efforts when the next move is a larger displacement plant.

I also have Twin Drums and also agree they work great + fine + ok for everyday needs... If i had a big block = yes i would probably upgrade =but the Moke is a Momentum car = if you're using the brakes your doing it wrong....  Keep that momentum going!

Goodluck !




Offline MPlayle

Re: 67 MK-II Moke
« Reply #14 on: October 03, 2016, 03:05:52 PM »
Thanks for the various "thoughts".  The engine aspect is the "longer term" side.

I have plenty of time to decide whether to work up the 850 or swap to something else.  I have noted that there is very little being done or available for the 850 engines - most "small bore" references are all for the 998 and 1098.

Technically, funds are not a big concern right now; however, I am used to being on a tight budget and don't want to go overboard either.

The basics will be it for the short term.  I would like to keep the discussion going in order to plan ahead.

Offline BruceK

Re: 67 MK-II Moke
« Reply #15 on: October 03, 2016, 03:38:32 PM »
Additional thoughts about bigger engines.  The primary reason for the large wealth of stuff for 998 engines over 850s is of course the fact that the 998 was the single most popular sized engine used for most of the Mini's production life.   

A lot of the popularity of the 998 was a function of good fuel consumption combined with UK and EU tax/insurance incentives to stay under 1 liter in size.  In that light, 850s are sort of oddballs, as are 1275s.     
1988 Austin Mini
2002 MINI Cooper S
2007 Triumph Bonneville

Offline jedduh01

Re: 67 MK-II Moke
« Reply #16 on: October 10, 2016, 01:09:01 PM »
After just spending 500+ Miles in the Tennessee mtns and curvy roads my 998 worked hard, but it for sure kept up with all the 1275's and bad drivers.   Was asked plenty of times what motor is in it, and what have i done cause my Moke was Boogyin!

 It would pull up the hills better than the 850 Mokes that were there.  But the whole key was keeping momentum. this was all with 'spirited' drives.   The interstate was doable at 60-65  and even 70 . But to really cruze the interstate a windbrake was grat  only by following behind a full size camper trailer would let the moke cruze along. Half throttle and no wind!

Twin piston front drum brakes worked perfectly fine + never had an issue. 

 as a whole = youll never win a speed race = but you suer will win the attenion of everyone else.

Enjoy the moke!

Offline MiniDave

Re: 67 MK-II Moke
« Reply #17 on: October 10, 2016, 01:28:25 PM »
You've pointed out the two major areas a 998 is a little lacking, up long hills and trying to do 75 on the freeway......

Dan's 998 runs great, the only time I could pull past him in Buzz is up a long hill where Buzz's 1310's extra torque really showed itself.

Looks like Mini 57 was a roaring success - I've been seeing photos on FB, which one is your Moke?
1989 Cooper Racing Green
2009 Clubman S
1969 Jaguar XK-E FHC
2004 Audi Allroad 2.7 TT

Offline 94touring

Re: 67 MK-II Moke
« Reply #18 on: October 10, 2016, 01:47:27 PM »
Ha yeah, everyone was asking what I had under the hood too..
« Last Edit: October 10, 2016, 03:01:40 PM by 94touring »

Offline MPlayle

Re: 67 MK-II Moke
« Reply #19 on: October 10, 2016, 02:53:06 PM »
From past experiences with an 850 (Panel Van), the 850 is a bit more lacking in the same areas as the 998.  The 850 takes a bit more to get its momentum up and loses it a bit easier.

The hills around the San Antonio area vary a lot - Bruce will remember.  Most of the highways are all 75mph.  A lot of the hill country roads are also in the 65-75 mph category now.

Wanting to consider options for beefing up the engine some are in order to not get run over even on the back roads.  (Been there done that on a Royal Enfield cycle with sidecar.)

PS> I know I still owe some fresh pictures - haven't even gotten out to clean it up since it got delivered.


Offline jedduh01

Re: 67 MK-II Moke
« Reply #20 on: October 10, 2016, 03:23:38 PM »
My Moke - After each trip and thrashing i just enjoy it more and more...

Please note the Dixie Plate = serving as a distributor water diversion piece that worked wonders for a VERY wet day.
   (also bagged the distributor)

Offline MPlayle

Re: 67 MK-II Moke
« Reply #21 on: October 10, 2016, 03:39:47 PM »
Your top doesn't act like a "drag chute"?

Some years ago, I had a yellow Aussie Moke (1981 - last year from there) with their standard top (included side curtains).  The top had the fixed rear widow (could not be rolled up) and it would act as a "drag chute" in higher head winds and kill most of the Moke's momentum.

The current Moke has a new top very similar to yours.

« Last Edit: October 10, 2016, 06:02:15 PM by MPlayle »

Offline MiniDave

Re: 67 MK-II Moke
« Reply #22 on: October 10, 2016, 05:27:06 PM »
My brother in England said they used to cut the finger tips out of latex gloves and slip them over the cap and wires to keep water out of the dizzy.

I think Willie B used a small bucket over his on his marathon trip to the northwest for MMW......didn't do a thing for keeping it out of his gas tank tho...... ::) ;D
1989 Cooper Racing Green
2009 Clubman S
1969 Jaguar XK-E FHC
2004 Audi Allroad 2.7 TT

Offline MPlayle

Re: 67 MK-II Moke
« Reply #23 on: October 14, 2016, 10:01:48 PM »
I had to replace the wiper arms and blades to be sure it would pass Texas inspection.  I also replaced the turn signal/hi-lo beam column switch as it kept dropping forward and keeping the hi-beams on and the horn portion had been bypassed for an aftermarket horn switch mounted on the column shroud.

With that all buttoned up, I actually got the Moke out on the road briefly today.  I took it out to a car wash and cleaned off all the travel grime and then down to get its Texas state inspection.

Top end it does not have, but was a joy to drive.  Now to get the remainder of the NY paperwork in order to get the Texas title and registration.

I will try to pull it out of the garage tomorrow and get some fresh pictures to post.

Next up on the "tinkering" is getting the new top situated.  All of the fasteners are in place on the top already and they match up to the studs on the body (rear rail and windshield rail).  I need to replace the side snaps on the frame for the top to attach to and attach the guide straps to the frame.
« Last Edit: October 14, 2016, 10:10:52 PM by MPlayle »

Offline BruceK

Re: 67 MK-II Moke
« Reply #24 on: October 14, 2016, 10:38:00 PM »
Michael, thanks for the update.  Sounds like it is going well. 

Since you mentioned the top, here's how I remember erecting the top on the '66 Moke I used to own:

Assuming you have the standard top and frame as fitted to English Mokes, you 1) make sure the rear snaps are fastened and pull the top material up over the "interior", but don't engage the over-center bows yet (the ones above the rear wheels), because you must  2) snap the top to the 11 fasteners across the top of the windshield frame, and only once those are secure, you 3) gently pull the over-center bows into position and lock them which will pull the top taught, then you 4) fasten any other side snaps. 

You'll never get the windshield snaps in place if you lock the over-center bows in place first.

1988 Austin Mini
2002 MINI Cooper S
2007 Triumph Bonneville