Restoration-Mini

WillieB has decided to entrust his 1275 engine to me for a rebuild, he did a fantastic job crating it up for the trip from Atlanta to KC, and it arrived yesterday.

I uncrated it and got it set up for the tear down. I pulled the head off first, and since it's already had quite a bit of work done to it including some port work and hardened seats, it will take very little new work - just a clean up and a refresh of the three angle valve job.

The carbon buildup on the pistons was pretty much what I expected for a 30K mile engine, so I set about tearing it down.

The complaints are that it has an unidentified "rattle", has blowby and has started smoking and has a couple minor oil leaks.

Once the head was off I got busy with the rest of the stripdown today.

The front cover came off, revealing a single row timing chain with tensioner. Chain looks OK but we'll replace it as a consumable.

Then the back end - I noticed quite a bit of play in the pivot pin for the clutch arm and when I got the disc out the springs were loose - maybe the rattle? We'll see. He also indicated the clutch wasn't releasing correctly so we'll address the play and replace the disc. Everything inside the clutch housing was clean and dry.

Once I got the engine split from the gearbox I noticed that the center oil pickup tube had no screen on it? Hmmm....that's not right. I haven't found the screen or any parts of it, but there was some brass swarf around the oil pressure plunger. We'll replace those parts too, along with the oil pump, fuel pump and water pump, just for good measure.

I loaded the block up on the bench and marked the rod bearing caps, then pulled them and the mains and removed the crank. Crank looks very good, records indicate it's been turned 10 thou under on both rods and mains and the rotating assembly balanced.

The bores didn't look bad, there was no ridge at the top and I haven't yet determined if it's been bored oversize, but it looks like it might be 40 over right now based on the size of the land between the cylinders.

Once the crank came out I got a surprise......the mains and thrust washers had little wear on them, but the upper bearing in the rods were a real surprise for an engine with approx 30K use. I'll let the pictures do the explaining.

So, I'll mic the crank, pistons and mains and then take the crank, rods and block off to the machine shop Monday morning where we'll give them a more precise measurement and make plans accordingly. In the meantime I'll get parts ordered and hopefully everything will arrive back about the same time.

The cam looked good but a few of the lifters were worn, I'll leave it up to Willie B if we go with a new cam or just replace the lifters. This head also has the sintered rocker arms, I'll suggest we go with the 1.13 Cooper S rockers if I can find them and of course a new rocker shaft as those are definitely a consumable.

Here's a pic of the inside of the gearbox, the center oil pickup is the tube in the top of the pic - there should be a screen on it much like the second pic. If it got chewed up by the gears and sent thru the oil system it seems I would be finding bits of it, but maybe not.

WilieB if you still have the oil filter cut it open and see what you find in it, OK?

The bores looked clean with no ridge at the tops - which is usually a good indication -  but the engine was blowing oil smoke and making a bit of crankcase blowby.....so I anticipated worn rings - they didn't look bad but the ring gaps on the few I checked were pretty large, a good indication of worn rings. I'll have the machine shop check for taper and wear in the bores, and if it's in tolerance we'll just give it a light hone and put some new rings in.

We'll mic the crank carefully and see if we can figure out why the upper rod bearings are worn like this - I've never seen them wear only one of the shells like this, but it makes sense that they'll wear the tops more than the bottom shells as that's where all the thrust is taken. Mains and thrusts looked as new.

Brad, I'm curious. What oil was used in the engine?  And what was the change interval? 

Quote from: BruceK on October 30, 2020, 05:14:50 PM
Brad, I'm curious. What oil was used in the engine?  And what was the change interval?

Always been using good oil. Since just after the engine was built I have been using this oil. Change intervals close to 2000 miles. 
https://www.schaefferoil.com/vtwin-oil.html

JASO MA2 is what Richard recommends too - especially for automatics. He also thinks it's better off with 10W40 rather than 20W50. He did a paper on it and I think it's a sticky here someplace.

I've run nothing but 20W50 in my engines too.

The engine was really clean inside, and other than the weird bearing wear and ring wear it was clean as a pin inside. Three lifters had wear pits in them, the rest looked good and the cam looks good too.

What cam is in there?

Quote from: Willie_B on October 30, 2020, 05:23:40 PM

Quote from: BruceK on October 30, 2020, 05:14:50 PM
Brad, I'm curious. What oil was used in the engine?  And what was the change interval?

Always been using good oil. Since just after the engine was built I have been using this oil. Change intervals close to 2000 miles. 
https://www.schaefferoil.com/vtwin-oil.html

Interesting.  With the Mini's shared engine/gearbox/diff that motorcycle oil makes a lot of sense.   Thanks.

Quote from: 94touring on October 30, 2020, 06:49:38 PM
What cam is in there?

https://www.calverst.com/webshop/engine/bp255-%E2%80%93-camshaft-hi-torque/

With a missing oil screen and the fact that a Mini engine uses the gearbox as a sump i am surprised the engine has not failed already and looks as good as it does.
The rod bearing wear on the upper shells is very strange, this engine will need some serious measuring before going back together.

I agree that it needs some serious measuring before going back together. Generally speaking when the overlay is worn through like that it's either a lack of oil or a clearance issue. Since it's only worn on one side of each bearing and it's somewhat symmetrical in that the outer area is worn on the outside bearings and the inside is worn on the inside bearings I would be looking for some sort of clearance issue.

On another note, I saw somewhere in one of your threads Dave that you used a machine shop that is "north" of you some distance. Would you be willing to share what machine shop that is? It would be nice to know where one is somewhat close by that knows these engines I have a couple of 1275 blocks that came with my car that I ought to do something with one of these days. On one the guy removed all the caps without marking them so it would probably need to be line bored.

Sure, for that sort of work - cranks and line boring -  I used a place called Claycomo Engine Rebuilders. Joe is the crankshaft expert - I never used them for any block work tho, just cranks. Part of the reason is they're so freaking busy that it takes 2 or 3 months or more just to get a crank done. But he does amazingly good crank work. I don't know if they can bore or line bore and engine this small.....I never asked them. They also do balance work if you take all the rotating parts with you they can balance the lot.

The place I used to use up north for block work has gone out of business, so I was using a place just a few miles from my house in Lenexa - QCKC - but they can't line bore a block with bearings that small. In fact, a 1275 is the smallest block they can bore the cylinders in (I had to take a 998 elsewhere) but they can do that and surface the top of the blocks too. But, they can't do cylinder heads for me as  they don't have small enough arbors to mount the cutters in the valve guides so - I send all the heads down to Nolans, who have been in business almost as long as I've been alive. Nolans also have the newest and most modern head machines.

The guy I used to use in Lenexa has moved to a shop in Lees Summit, so I'll be taking Brad's block and crank over to him - he is a consumate expert and really knows his stuff, so he'll look at it with me. His first observation was that maybe the rods were on the wrong pistons - as these rods are offset - that's a possibility. This shop can do the crank and the block work, so now I'm back to using one shop for heads and only one for the rest of the engine. I'll see how they do before recommending them, but I have a lot of faith in the guy that I know there - he's done several blocks for me already, including the one in the Innocenti.

I would have used him for cylinder heads too if he had the correct arbors, his current shop can't do them either, but Nolans can and they do excellent work.

I'm sure there are plenty of engine shops in your area, the problem is their equipment isn't sized for these tiny engines.

I bet  the bearing wear would indicate crank slightly out of balance.  Just a guess. Symetrical pattern 1 and 4 on outside, 2 & 3 inside.

There are plenty of indications that the rotating assembly was balanced, whether it was done right or not I won't know till we decide what we're going to do to rebuild it - for example, whether we'll go back with new pistons or re-use these - and I have them rebalance it.

But first things first, need to find out if the crank is straight and whether the journals are tapered. Also need to see if we can get away with simply honing the cylinders or if it will need to be bored.

Lastly - I need to see if I can find any of the remains of the screen from the center oil pickup.

Of course the block will be thoroughly cleaned out - including removing the plugs in the oil galleries.

So, further info....

I cleaned the head up and pulled the valves out - the guides look fine, valves will only need a slight touch up and they'll be good too so the head will need very little work to get it sorted. I will replace the rocker shaft and if WillieB agrees replace the standard sintered rocker arms with Cooper S forged 1.13 rockers.

On closer inspection the cam has damage on three or four lobes too, so we'll be getting another cam and a new set of lifters.

I also found one of the pistons had a chunk of ring land broken out and being held in by the rings, so we'll be getting new piston(s) depending on whether it needs to be bored out or not.

Once the machine shop checks out the crank carefully, then we'll know what we're doing there too - I'll also have them check the rods for straightness - although it seems to me if the rods were bent it would wear on the cap end bearing too opposite the wear on the top bearing. So, not too sure what's going on there yet.

There was damage to the rear cam bearing too, tho not as bad as on some engines I've seen.

Lastly, tomorrow I'll remove the lay shaft and take out that oil pickup tube and see if I can find the remains of the screen that's supposed to be there.

Thanks for the info on the machine shops Dave, unfortunately there are only a few up around here that I know and would trust and like you said they do not have the equipment to work on this small of an engine. It would be great if the new place works out since they can "do it all" as you say. Sending a head out for work is a lot easier than the engine block, and KC is close enough for a drive down to not bother me much. Not sure when I might tear into one of these engines but it's good to have a place to call on when the time comes.

Seems like machine shop work is a dying art in most places, which is unfortunate. A custom fab shop/machine shop is one thing I think I would really enjoy doing, but the equipment outlay is extensive for sure. Maybe it will be my retirement job some day LOL

What compression ratio was he running?  Good time to bump it up to 10:1 and toss in a 266 equivalent cam to really wake things up.

This engine started as a MG Metro so it was already 10-1. May be a touch higher from surfacing the head and black last time around. Or it may have balanced out due to the pistons being 20 over.

If you guys get all the specs I can plug it in the calculator.

Edit:  If you started with a STD 1275 metro at 10:1:1 and went 20 over to a 1293cc it gives you 10:23:1.  30 over 1301cc would give you 10:29:1 and 40 over 1310cc would give you 10:36:1. 

Quite a lot of damage for a relatively low mileage 30k engine, also strange when you consider that a good quality oil has been used with regular 3k miles oil changes.
It will be interesting to see what the machine shop comes up with regarding the crankshaft and connecting rods.

Hi all. I joined to keep an eye on tmsmini's fuel injection project, but always interested to see what people find when they strip an engine.

The wear pattern on the big end bearing is very interesting, almost as if someone had managed to fit the rods with the offset 180 deg out, look forward to hearing the actual reason though.

As pointed out by someone else, there's a lot of damage on a relatively low mileage engine.

Hey PoolGuy.  Welcome to Restoration Mini!

Quote from: PoolGuy on November 01, 2020, 12:39:13 AM
Hi all. I joined to keep an eye on tmsmini's fuel injection project, but always interested to see what people find when they strip an engine.

I better get off my ass then...I wish I had the energy of Dave.

All the parts went off to the machine shop this morning, they were having an electrical panel replaced so the power was off - and it was DARK in there!

I got them all the specs so they can measure everything out, and - good news - they can do my cylinder heads too, so I don't have to run all over town dropping parts here and there.

Power is supposed to be back on this afternoon - they'll drop the crank in the jig and put a dial indicator on it to see if it's straight and check the journals for taper, then we'll know if it's OK or needs a grind. At the very least we'll micro polish the journals.

If the cylinders aren't tapered we may be able to just hone them, then we decided since one piston broke we'll replace the set rather than take a chance that the others don't have hidden cracks somewhere.....of course I won't know what size to order till they check it out.

The consensus I'm getting is that the bearing damage may have been due to detonation, and that's the rattle he was hearing and mistaking for some other sound. Still speculation right now but that's the load side of the bearing and the load side of the rod.....still investigating as we want to be sure before we put it together again.

I sent the pic off to Kent Prather at Prather Racing to see what he thinks, I probably won't hear back from him till this evening tho as he has no cell phone service in his shop.

Things are moving along.

The piston land did give me the impression of detonation.  Easy enough to do on a higher compression motor.  That's why I'm so big on installing widebands.

OK, so the crank and rods checked out fine, so we're going ahead with the build.

Consensus is the combination of loss of oil pressure, lugging and detonation caused the problem. Broken ring land is pretty obvious sign of detonation and the wear pattern is because of the offset rods causing the majority of the thrust to be on that side.

So, we'll make it all new again, I'll make sure the distributor advance is working correctly and WillieB will make sure he's not lugging the engine. I still need to take the transmichigan apart and look into the oil pickup screen - maybe it never had one but I find that hard to believe.

More as it happens.......

Glad to hear everything checked out with the crank and rods. Were you able to get away with a simple honing or do you have to go with larger pistons?

Don't know yet, and he hasn't said if he's going to grind the crank down or just polish it, but at least it's straight and not bent.

One of the mysteries of this engine is what happened to the screen over the end of the oil pick up tube? You can see in these pics the imprint of the screen and where it might have been soldered on. I don't know if the screen got chewed up in the gears and run thru the engine or if maybe the tube didn't have one when it was assembled?

Either way - it's a puzzle.

Of course my assumption is it was there, came off and got chewed into tiny bits and sent thru the works......either way we'll put a new one in.

I've looked thru the sump and can't find any trace of it, and absent a brass magnet or a complete stripdown of the gearbox I don't know if I will. So. My plan is to set the gearbox on it's end and spray some clean clear solvent in the case and see if anything washes out - it not I'll call it good. I already stood it on it's end in a clean pan to drain every smidgen of oil out and found no pieces in the oil....I'm thinking it's either been digested or it's in the oil filter in a billion bits.

Stranger and stranger still... 50.gif

I wonder if pieces of the screen could show up in some of the oil galleries? I sure hope not.

The machine shop has already washed the block out, so I don't know....I asked them to check but I'm sure he just put it in the jet washer and turned it on....

difficult getting parts right now, particularly suspension and engine parts. WillieB is looking all over for pistons - no one has them.

Just need the one or having to bore for a new set?

Same bore, but we decided to replace all 4 since one broke, the others could be suspect. 20 thou over 1275 high compression.

Machine shop update: All good news, the bores will easily clean up with a light honing, the crank is straight and not damaged, we'll do a micro polish on it. The head will only need a very light recut of the seats and it's good to go. The rods are straight and not damaged.

So, we'll have them install the new pistons on the rods, then check the balance and do whatever needed there. Then I'll pick it all up and start the rebuild process once I get all the parts. It should be home for Xmas!

That's good news from the machine shop.
Just curious Brad with the detonation issue/damage what distributor were you using? I think the last time you had some issues coming home from MMW a few years ago that you were using a 123 distributor?

Quote from: Jimini II on November 05, 2020, 01:46:14 PM


That's good news from the machine shop.
Just curious Brad with the detonation issue/damage what distributor were you using? I think the last time you had some issues coming home from MMW a few years ago that you were using a 123 distributor?

The 123 issues were a wet dist. I am now running one from CSI. Programable just like the 123. It could be that the rattle I was hearing was not mechanical but pinging. I just did not think that was what it was so just keep driving.

Just curious: if it was detonation (pinging), what is the solution to prevent it from happening again once the damage has been remedied?

Would it be a combination of higher octane fuel and a timing adjustment?  Change in timing which way?

Quote from: Willie_B on November 05, 2020, 02:07:58 PM

Quote from: Jimini II on November 05, 2020, 01:46:14 PM


That's good news from the machine shop.
Just curious Brad with the detonation issue/damage what distributor were you using? I think the last time you had some issues coming home from MMW a few years ago that you were using a 123 distributor?

The 123 issues were a wet dist. I am now running one from CSI. Programable just like the 123. It could be that the rattle I was hearing was not mechanical but pinging. I just did not think that was what it was so just keep driving.

I guess you need to look into the advance curve you were running with the new CSI dizzy.

Retarding the timing a few degrees should cure it, assuming the compression ratio is not to high. I'll be able to more accurately check that once I get the engine back and do the dry build so I can measure everything. I'll also CC the chambers while it's there.

This was under load it was making the rattling?  Do you recall which csi curve you're using?

Quote from: MiniDave on November 05, 2020, 03:31:55 PM
Retarding the timing a few degrees should cure it, assuming the compression ratio is not to high. I'll be able to more accurately check that once I get the engine back and do the dry build so I can measure everything. I'll also CC the chambers while it's there.

Yes and checking the maximum advance.

No idea which curve on the csi???

Just picked up a belt cam drive setup. Looks very well made. Probably overkill. Should I go for it and have Dave use it?

Wow that thing looks really well made!

What's the draw to going to a belt setup and since we are on that subject, are these "interference" engines?

Having had/have several different Toyota's the timing belt models that are interference engines are just a hassle. Of course at the miles generally put on a classic like this it's probably not as big a deal.

I see there's a lot of adjustment with that belt, but the service life of a belt would surely be shorter than with a nice duplex chain, right?

I doubt it matters, even tho WillieB's done 30K on this motor, he's in the minority - most Minis are lucky to get 1000 miles a year, some are lucky to get 100.

But - since you have it - let's use it!   77.gif

Is it for an A+ engine?

Plus too and also, it's adjustable so I don't have to set the timing with offset keys. I wonder if there's a lock plate that the screws go into that goes under the gear too? I didn't see anything in the pics you posted.....

I seriously doubt these are interference engines, you'd need well over 1/2" of lift to clear the head. As for quieter - these engines rattle and thrash enough that I doubt you'd hear the difference, but I expect the belt will last longer than a chain - and belts don't stretch like chains do.

It is a beautiful piece of kit there is no doubt about that

Rear of the cam gear. 

Is there a difference between A and A+ for that part?

Only in the cover design, the A+ engines have a kick out under the alternator for the timing chain tensioner - this looks like it's that style.

Dave.. with your knowledge, I wish you created videos of rebuilding an engine.   I'm about to begin tearing my engine apart.   What I thought was a 1275 is actually a 1360 (I forget the exact numbers now).    I will have to follow this thread.... Oh Mr. Willie B is going to get a fabulous engine no doubt...

I know right, I was thinking he needs an apprentice or protégé or something.

Where would my business go if I taught everyone my secrets?   ;D

I might do that on a future build on one of my own engines, I'm not a good videographer or editor, and it's hard to get camera angles right while you're trying to do stuff - just ask Cole at Mini DIY!

Expecting parts over the next few days/week.....then I can get them delivered over to the machine shop.

Block has been honed, crank is polished, valves and seats have been cut to a nice 3 angle, now I need the pistons so they can swap them onto the rods (pressed in pins) then they can balance the assembly and I can pick stuff up for the build.

Once I get it back I will dry build to check clearances on the rods/mains/thrusts/ring gaps and clean everything one more time before final assembly.

Pistons came in today, so I ran them over to the machine shop. The head and crank are already done so I brought them home with me.

The block still needs to be honed to size, but we wanted to have the pistons before we did that -  and he'll also swap the pistons onto the rods for me - while the old pistons are off he'll double check the rods to make sure they're straight and the big ends are round.

He'll also match the weight of the new pistons to the old ones if they're close enough, otherwise I'll take the rotating assembly over and they'll balance the whole thing together....but they think just matching the pistons up will do it.

The block and pistons should be done by midweek......and I'll go pick it all up and get ready to build it up once the rest of the parts we've ordered come in.

What's the old Chinese curse? "May you live in interesting times"?

My machinist friend called me this morning to let me know he'll have the block done today, and that he was going back home cause he's had Covid for the last week and it's kicking his butt! Yet he's still going to work every day because he can't afford not to and the shop can't do without him as they're so backed up with work. I think the only reason our stuff got done so quickly is that it was fairly easy and he slid me in ahead of other work.

So, I'm going over tomorrow to pick it all up....I'll have plenty of hand sanitizer, latex gloves and mask on and just hope for the best. I dunno if I need to spray everything down with Lysol when I get it home or what? I sure can't afford to get it, what with my other health issues and upcoming surgery in early January! My daughter called and said both her oldest boy and she had it and the whole family is quarantined - fortunately they live on a small farm so they have room to get out of each other's hair so they all don't go nuts being cooped up together.

As for the block, he said it cleaned up with very little effort, he had to straighten and resize one of the rods slightly, and everything was close enough in spec that it took very little to balance it again. So, once it's all home  I can start the cleanup and measuring.....

New parts should be here both today and tomorrow, then I can get started in earnest. With any luck it will be home in time for Willie B to have it in the car by Xmas!

My health issues are kicking my butt too, and really limiting what time I can spend in the shop - some days I can't even get off the couch! I have yet another Dr. appt Monday, we'll see if he can get me over this crap.....I'm still convinced it's a meds issue.

Edit: My buddy is going to loan me his surface plate and burette so I can CC the head, and calculate the compression ratio...I'm sure it's fine but I want to document everything.

Sorry to hear you're not at 100%.   

Good idea to go full hazmat suit when you pick it up!

Go for the high visibility orange.

Where do you suppose you would get a getup like that?   :-\

From China, by way of Amazon. 😁

So I went over to the plague infested shop today and picked up the block and pistons, I think I got out unscathed, they carried the stuff out and put it in the car for me, and they were wearing masks and latex gloves. I got it all in the shop but the block will need a lot of cleanup before it's ready to build....I wonder if safety solvent kills the 'Rona?  8.gif

The box with the belt drive came in and it's a really nice bit of kit - he got a great deal on it IMHO. The cover and back plate are a lot heavier than I expected, but the whole setup is nicely made with great little touches like the TDC mark on the cover.

Other projects will have to take precedence over the next few days, but I plan to get started on the build up phase early next week with the goal of shipping it by the end of the month or very early Dec.

Cam bearings installed using my custom cam bearing installer.

Next up check all the ring end gaps, then lay the crank in and check the clearance on all the bearings, with that all done I'll do one more final clean up of the block then I can start assembly.

Cam bearing installer, just some length of all thread with properly sized washers and nuts as required? Do you use the same tool to uninstall?

Same tool to uninstall, it has some specially made bushings that fit inside the bearings and act as a guide on re-install.

I've put them in a lot of different ways in the past - I've tapped them in with a plastic mallet, knocked them in with a seal installer and so on, but using a properly sized bushing installer is the best way as you have to line up the front and middle bearings to the oil holes in the block.

This afternoon I worked on the cylinder head and rockers.....

First up was to clean it, then set the valves in, install the stem seals, then the new double springs, caps and keepers. I don't know why the gasket sets only come with 4 stem seals as I and every other engine builder I know puts them on all the valves. I keep extras on hand so I'll always have a full set available.

Next I run a tap in every threaded hole to make sure there's no crud in there that will keep the studs from setting properly. Lastly I'll run my flat block over the head surface with some 1200 wet or dry to make sure the head surface has a good "tooth", then I'll give it one last clean up.

I also assembled the rocker arm assembly with a new heavy duty shaft and new forged Cooper S rockers. There's nothing wrong with the sintered rockers on here as they tend to wear the shaft more than the rockers, but I've read that they're not exactly real accurate for geometry or ratio - these Cooper S rockers are an honest 1.13% and well made, so I prefer to use them with the cam we're using.

The shaft wear doesn't photograph well, but there was definitely some wear on it - they're considered a consumable and I always change them.

So that should do it for the cylinder head, valves done, new stem seals, new double springs, new rockers and rocker shaft.

Next up some more work on the block.

Have you got something like a piece of angle iron bolted to the head to hold it in the vise? Just wondering.

No, I put two studs in the head and I have some soft jaws in the vise to protect the studs - they're aluminum with hard rubber inserts in them.

That works too. Just thought you might be living on the edge having it just balance thete.

Ha! I'm not THAT good......   ::)

Got a little more done on WillieB's engine project today......I got the transmission cleaned out and all the old gaskets scraped off - I don't know what kind of gasket sealer he used before but it was some TOUGH stuff to scrape off!

I installed the rings on the pistons and but before I did I put the top ring in each respective bore and checked the ring gap. they were all in tolerance so I slid piston one into it's bore.

Then I installed the crank, and used plastigauge to check the clearance Clarance. Everything checked out fine. I also checked the crankshaft end play using my dial indicator.

With that all set I torqued the main caps and the cylinder one rod caps and checked to make sure it all turned smoothly, which it does.

Before I installed the front plate I put the oil gallery plugs in.

Next up I put the lifters and cam in, then filled the oil pump with oil and installed it to hold the cam in the right depth so I could do the front end.

Then it was time to figure out how to install that slick cam belt drive....I looked at it a while before I figured out I had it upside down - once turned around it fit perfectly!  :-[

I had to make some small modifications to the front plate - same as you do if you're going to run a dual chain - you have to chamfer the holes for the two bottom screws then you have to use allen head  screws instead of bolts. With that done and all the parts cleaned up it was ready to go together.

Lastly I had to clean off the end of the crankshaft, they tend to get a raised edge that keeps the lower pulley from sliding on easily. A little bit of work with a file and some 1200 cleaned it up . I also had to rework the woodruff key so the new pulley would slide on. It was interesting to find that the cam had a 3* offset key in it.

That's where I stopped for tonight, I'll install the cam drive and set the cam timing next....

So when you are using the plastigauge to check clearances do you only check the main bearings and I assume you check them all?

I have never used it before but it looks pretty straight forward, I see they mention to check it in multiple places is that really necessary? Do you only need to check it on the cap side as well?

That timing set up looks great, it's almost a shame a guy will never get to see those pretty timing gears.

I check all the bearings, but I only check in one spot - I don't see the sense in checking all the way around the journal as I had the crank checked for size, taper and out of round. I'm merely confirming that the clearance is correct - it's probably overkill again as I've already had the crank and rods checked for size and true.

Dave, that's a good photo of you working with the piston rings.  4.gif

Pictures with people in them are usually more interesting than those without, but they're difficult to set up and take time and I usually forget to even take them! Trying to make the thread more interesting and less dry....

Thanks Bruce.

Less dry.  Anyone?

Nice work Dave.
I had a belt drive set up on a pick up I owned and loved it and the lack of chain/gear noise was a bonus too.

Some more progress on this motor.

I installed the trick adjustable, belt driven cam drive kit and spent this afternoon getting the timing set right - 106* ATDC intake valve fully open. It took a while to get the set up right, then it's super easy to adjust the cam timing.

With that set I buttoned it up.

Next I'll go ahead and install the other pistons and torque everything up.

I also was lucky to find a couple gaskets for the center oil pickup in my spares stash. I don't think I'll be able to install the pick up unless I take the layshaft out first - with the screen on the end it's too long to bend around and fit in the opening with the layshaft installed.

With these things done the rest of the build will go much more quickly.....the head is done and ready to go on. with any luck by next weekend it will be headed back to Atlanta.

I wonder if the belt helps cut down some noise?

I'll know later next week, when I fire it up in the engine stand, but I don't remember there being a lot of noise coming from the chain drives.....

Yeah, not less you put a stethoscope to it. 

So all in all is the belt drive timing setup any easier to get going than the standard setup? Do you suppose it is worth the extra cost? it sure does look nice.

I would imagine there is enough noise in the rest of the valvetrain that just a timing chain to belt change wouldn't be super noticeable but you never know.

This is the easiest adjustable timing setup I've worked with, setting the std timing is as simple as aligning the dots on the respective gears. Otherwise you're using offset keys which requires putting the chain on and off several times to get the timing set. Other adjustables I've used are similar to this one but this one is easy to move and has reference marks on it.

WillieB says his research shows the belts are only good for 20-30K - not that most people drive their classics that far in the time they own them....most are lucky to do 1000 a year so I doubt that's really an issue. Replacing the belt would require removing the radiator, and doing it in the car would not be fun.

As for price, I think WillieB got an exceptional deal on this kit.....most of the vernier adjustable timing chain kits cost way more than this and don't include the aluminum housing and such.

Next up I'll install the other three pistons and button up the bottom end then set it on the transmission for the rest of the build. I still have a few things to do to the trans to get ready for the engine.....new axle and shift shaft seals, as well as install the oil pickup tube.

I have one of those adjustable vernier double chains ones with lightened something or other. Don't remember how much it cost. 

About $150 IIRC....they range all over tho. spares has them for about $125.....no idea about how theirs works but it looks like you have to remove and install pins to lock it down. Others use a series of screws like this one does.

Inno has the stock double chain.  Even with a cam and 1410cc's it idles better and quieter than me!  It's like a sewing machine. 

The pistons are about 10 thou proud of the deck height, and I wasn't able to borrow my friends CC'ing kit, so I'm just going to buy one for myself. I want to calculate the compression ratio of this set up so I know where we're at. It won't be a problem if it's higher than the 10.3 I normally prefer, but it affects how far you can go with the timing among other things.

It also won't be a problem with the pistons hitting the head as the head gasket is much thicker than 10 thou.....

Dave's going to get final specs on piston/head volume, but we ran numbers for what it most likely has, including gasket volume and ring land, and he's at 11:1 compression as is.  Going to need to bump the volume up about 2.5cc's per cylinder to get it down to 10:3.   

Could the CR be dropped with a thicker head gasket?

https://www.cometic.com/applications/automotive/austin/mini-comper/1969

Yes you could.   They list compressed thickness too.  I'm out at dinner but will run some numbers when I get back to the hotel.

Quote from: Willie_B on November 28, 2020, 05:48:27 PM
Could the CR be dropped with a thicker head gasket?

https://www.cometic.com/applications/automotive/austin/mini-comper/1969

wow, I had no idea there were so many of these sizes available! Are these stateside or England only?

Edit: Looks like there are plenty of places out west of here

Edit 2: it says they're made to order, 5-6 weeks out

You need this one.  It will take you down to 10:15:1. 

BMC 1275 A-Series .060" MLS Cylinder Head Gasket, 73mm Bore

Me either Dave!  Great for my turbo conversion!

The Cometic website's "Contact" page lists an Ohio address as the company address along with US phone numbers.

Their "Locate a Dealer" shows a shop in Lenexa, Kansas:
Star Performance
14320 W. 99th Street
Lenexa, Ks 66215
Phone: 913-647-4644

Edit: For near(ish) to Dan:
Engine And Performance Warehouse Inc.
4230-b Charter Avenue
Oklahoma City, Ok 73108

Yeah, but 5-6 weeks out.....

Can't hurt to call the shop in Lenexa on Monday to verify?  Who knows, you may get lucky and they have one in stock?

Maybe they can make a 0.55 one.  The .51 gives 10:4 compression.  That's an option too.  Personally I'd just do the 10:15 and feel good running premium fuel at a normal timing setting.

I will call, but while they may be a Cometic dealer they deal in American muscle cars, not funny little British imports.....I know them.

Those are the compressed values, I wonder what they are before compression? The std gasket I have now is 55 thou uncompressed.

Quote from: MiniDave on November 28, 2020, 06:34:35 PM
I will call, but while they may be a Cometic dealer they deal in American muscle cars, not funny little British imports.....I know them.

Those are the compressed values, I wonder what they are before compression? The std gasket I have now is 55 thou uncompressed.

You've got that 3.4cc compressed gasket.  Even the 4cc one wouldn't be enough that spares sells.  Nice to know there are options, even if it does take 5 weeks!

I left a message for an overseas vendor that listed as available in 10-14 days to see how real that was.

Dave if you get a moment check to see what needle he has in the hif44 that Brads running.  It should be pretty close to what I run, without the shaving I required, but I also have port work and probably bigger valves so that should equal out the modified needle work.  Really need to get a wideband on it when it's all said and done to make sure it's in a good safe tune.  Didn't check to see if you had the CSI there with you, but once it's hooked up, remove the cap, turn the ignition on and count the blinks on the CSI.  With a tiny screw driver select it to blink 7 times.  This will be pretty close to an Aldon Yellow that's set to 10 degrees at idle.  With a timing gun verify static timing at 10 degrees at an idle up to 1k rpms before the curve will begin to increase.  Usually it bounces a little that low so I like to verify higher up.  You could check 3k which should be a little shy of 26 degrees. You should see 30 degrees at 5k and 32 degrees at 6k.  I just set the idle screw to the rpm and dial in the timing gun to match, easy peasy.  Not sure how high Brad revs it on a spirited drive.  If you/he want something more conservative (10:5 engine compression zone on pump fuel) I'd set it to blinking light number 3.  This will show about 24.5 degrees at 3k, somewhere around 27.5 degrees at 5k and 30 degrees at 6k.  If his redline is say 5k-5500 you could probably go with blinking light 10, which would give you about 24 degrees at 3k and about 31 degrees at 5k, but full in is 34 degrees at 6k if revving that high which is still safe just on the end of it, and you'd want to make sure your air fuel is in the 12's up there at WOT and be more at that 10:15 compression on pump fuel.  My motor didn't produce any more power beyond about 32 degrees on the dyno.  Avoid curves 13-16. 

Worth noting if you modify the idle static it modifies the whole curve.  Subtracting or adding from the base of 10 degrees moves the whole curve the same amount.  Maybe it idles better at 12 degrees so going with curve 3 makes more sense, or it diesels on shutdown and likes 8 degrees so curve 10 is best, ect...

I'll be using my HIF44 carb, I don't remember which needle I wound up with, I think it's either a BDL or BDK....

I always set the timing to 8* on a new engine and suggest to keep it there the first 500 miles or so.

He does have a CSI so I appreciate the input on which curve to use, my plan was to start with a modest curve, so probably the three. I'll be interested to see what curve it's on now.

I don't currently have a wideband hooked up, but it doesn't matter anyway since there's no load  on the engine in the test stand....he would need one in the car to set up the carb. I don't have his carb here so he'll have to do that part of the setup.

Right yep, it's for him to think about when he's got it in the car and before he goes out and stomps on it.  4.gif

I have a BDL needle in the carb now.

I'm sure it's been posted in here and I forgot, but anything aside from the mild cam like some head work done?  You may want to put a BDK and BCE in your arsenal for when you get ready to tune.

The ports have had some work, but the combustion chambers look untouched from stock. The block has def been decked some, maybe as much as 20 thou based on how much of the piston is above the block surface - approx 10 thou and that most undecked engines the pistons are about 10 thou below the deck surface.

If it's breathing better and mostly stock with a mild cam, and the 20 over is a factor, BDK might be the better match. BAK is for mostly stock.  I use a BCE which is what Calverst suggest on a worked head and 266 cam. I still had to modify the needle in the upper stations for WOT pulls to 6k.  I'm 40 over and the head work is more aggressive. Put this way if you're mildly lean now the BDK will be perfect.  If you're really lean the BCE is the one to use.  Just have to cross that bridge when you get there.

WillieB is checking his stash first - but I need a gasket. It goes on the end of the gearcase - speedo drive end. I had to pull that cover to remove the laygear to put the oil pickup tube in. I have literally every other gasket for a Mini engine and/or gearbox but that one!

Goes here....

That's why I keep a roll of gasket maker and an X-acto knife kit around!

I have gasket paper too, but that place is prone to leak.....I think a factory gasket will work better

I will check my stash as well.

I checked mine, I have several different gaskets but that is not one of them.

I don't have that one either.

I'll call Guido in the morning. If not, 7Ent has them...so does Mania.

Was just looking at those head gaskets again and out of curiosity wondered how much you could raise compression by going with their thinnest gasket on a std 1275 with 3.5cc gasket.  Comes out to a :15 increase or :25 increase with the 4cc gaskets. Not much but if you were on the low side or wanted a little extra oomph it's an option.

I'm not sure that would work, stacking two fire rings on top of each other, I think one would easily blow out.

Speaking of gaskets, Guido had a complete transmission set for $10, so he's sending it along.

I wasn't suggesting that. Just passing info along for anyone that might be doing head work and wants an easy way to bump up compression.

My bad, I completely mis-read your post - need to wear my glasses!  :-[

The opposite end is the thickest gasket would lower stock down about 2:5:1.  I had been figuring I'd need a plate and 2 gaskets to lower my compression for the turbo conversion but this is a much easier solution.

what compression are you planning to run on the turbo conversion?

9:1 should work.  I believe the metro turbo was around there. 

One thing you have to pay attention to with these thicker or thinner gaskets is the relationship of the rocker to the valve as you in effect shorten or lengthen the pushrods. It's not hard to get the geometry out of whack....for example, if you add 250 thou to the thickness of the gasket, you've now effectively shortened the pushrods by that amount too.

The cure is to put a shim under the stands, use adjustable or shortened/lengthened pushrods or machine metal off the bottom of the stands as needed.

I'm glad you started this thread Dave. The more I learn the more I figure out I don't know. Lots of great info here.

Indeed same here! I am trying to keep my engine questions located here for future reference so sorry for cluttering up your engine build thread with unrelated questions.

That said, on your turbo build Dan, do you have to run an upgraded oil pump? I was noticing that MED had a turbo specific oil pump that has a higher capacity. the reason I ask is this whole turbo thing has me intrigued. I have always wanted to build a turbo motor up and since I have a few spare 1275 blocks laying about I was thinking perhaps I might travel down that path one of these days. I do miss my WRX and that lovely turbo noise.

The difference between the regular and turbo oil pumps is flow, not pressure. Regular is 6 gpm and turbo is 9 gpm. I think the difference is because most turbo engines (all?) run an oil cooler, plus use the oil to cool the turbo. I think it would be a good idea, but I don't know that it's absolutely necessary....I think it will depend on usage - if you're running track events I would def run the turbo pump.

Would agree with Dave.  It's not enough to make me concerned.  I should probably run an oil cooler, or at minimum have an oil temp gauge to see if I need one.  Some turbos will also use coolant to cool.  I made sure to avoid one of those for simplicity.

I have a fair amount of info in my 74 broke down thread on it.  Ignition timing and custom things I'm doing.

I will have to read through it again, mainly focusing on turbo stuff and take notes I guess.

The last handful of pages is where it evolves into turbo stuff.

Making small progress on the engine build while I wait for the burette and cover plate to come in that I ordered so I can accurately check the size of the combustion chambers and get an accurate compression ratio.

In cleaning up the thermostat housing I noticed that one of the bolts only had about three threads going into the head, rather than find another bolt with a different head I decided to put studs back in - they're stronger anyway. See the pics before and after.

I also put the new studs in the bottom of the exhaust manifold - one interesting point, those studs are metric! 8X1.25 for those counting..... ::)

I'm also waiting for the gasket to put the trans cover on, one of the pot joints was leaking engine oil into the joint - it's a common problem on these - the easiest way to fix it is just put some JB Weld over the cap on the inside so I cleaned it up good, blew some carb cleaner into the joint and blew it out with air then sanded the surface a little to give it some tooth for the JB to stick to.

That done I went ahead and mounted the engine onto the transmichigan....then I mocked up the exhaust and intake manifolds to make sure my intake would work with that exhaust - only to remember I'll be using my header in the test stand! Oh well....

That timing cover looks huge, from that perspective at least.....but oh so pretty.

I have not seen spacers like that used on a thermostat housing before.  Also, normally there are shorter studs so that only a washer is needed under each nut.

I note the spacers are also different heights.

Edit: Is there going to be a flywheel housing breather?  That fancy belt drive housing does not have a breather on it and a 1275 needs at least one good breather, if not two.

The spacers are so the radiator bracket will line up. I think he said this was a metro engine originally.

Me, I'd go with the original short studs and a different bracket.  77.gif

I'll have to check to see if there's one on the clutch housing.....but you're right, it definitely needs one.

Is the mechanical fuel pump just your test stand setup or is that what he is running on the motor as well? Always the option to put one there as well if running an electric pump.

Yep, that's what he runs so that's what it has. Yes, I've seen kits to put a fitting in the fuel pump hole for a crankcase vent......

I run an old electric pump on the test stand.

Getting closer.....

The burette and plate came in so today I'll lift the head off and CC the chambers, then we'll know what to do from there. We're thinking that I will go ahead and grind out some metal and bring the compression down that way rather than wait for up to two months for a special head gasket if the results are still where we think they are.

As you can see, the clutch housing does have a breather, but I agree more is better. If there's one off the valve cover too that would help.

Looking good 4.gif

Isn't the oil fill cap vented? Obviously it's not a huge vent so may not help much and maybe they are not all vented, but I know the one on my car has a small hole in the cap and the bottom side of the cap is filled with a steel wool like substance to help filter the oil out of the air similar to the large breathers.

This is just his "shipping" valve cover, I don't know what he will be using on the engine. these plastic caps may be vented, but they don't have any material inside them.....

It shouldn't have any blow by to speak of, so the venting need should be minimal.

After some discussion, we decided that I would go ahead and resize the combustion chambers to get the compression ratio more in line....our calculations indicate we need to go from the current approx 21.5CC to 24 to get compression down from 11-1 to 10.3-1.

I copied a pic out of Vizard's book to get an idea of the best place to remove metal, and decided if I could get enough off from the exhaust valve area that would work the best (Areas marked C and D in the pic) . In these pics, the green area is inside the fire ring, so at the edges I did not want to remove any metal if I could help it, just enough to blend in the new area (areas marked XXXXX).

I marked a small area off in red and took my burr in my die grinder to it - going really slow and carefully so it would blend at the bottom and not leave any sharp edges that could evolve into hot spots that could cause detonation or trap carbon. You don't want a polished surface, but rather a slightly imperfect one as smooth surfaces cause the fuel droplets to condense and you don't get as good and complete of a burn. After the first go around I had only gained about 1 cc, so I marked off a larger area and went at it again. After blending and polishing I rechecked it and had my 24 cc. I did the second chamber in one go and measured it and bingo - right on the money!

I had to cut away and take the bride to dinner and do some other honey do's so I won't get back to it till tomorrow.

Die grinders use a lot of air - especially my 35 year old and well used one - so it was nice to be able to have the new air compressor which not only could keep up but would shut off for quite a bit even when I was going at it pretty long and hard....not to mention the grindier stayed at full speed unlike with my old compressor where I'd get about 30 sec of full speed then it would begin to slow down.....then I'd have to stop and wait 5 min or so for it to catch back up.

And the last pic showing the difference in shape once they were done....no it's not your eyes, one side is shinier than the other! I took a scotch brite pad to the one side to make sure it was perfectly clean and to give it just enough tooth to hold the gasket.

Nice work Dave I am sure Brad will be happy with the results.

Regarding the air pressure on your air compressor I found by adding a large second tank with a gauge and two outlets my compressor now keeps up with any job I need to do. I also have a manual shut off if I don't need that much air volume.

I barely have room in my tiny shop for this one!  ::)

In fact, I've been thinking about relocating it to the basement. It pretty much only runs when I'm doing something air intensive like using this grinder, otherwise it fills up and can sit for days if all I'm doing is using an air gun occasionally. The only downside for that would be if it's noisy enough to be disturbing upstairs......

I really dont use mine that much anymore.
With the battery powered tools available now i seem to only use the air compressor when using bodywork tools or airing up tires lately.

I guess it depends on what I'm doing, if I'm tearing down an engine or a suspension the air tools are really helpful. Putting things back together I don't use them as much so I can judge the torque I'm putting on the fasteners. And of course, I use the heck out of my air blower gun to dry parts off or clean them. At some point I'm going to get my sand/walnut shell blaster going and the extra capacity of this compressor will really make a big difference.

Got a little further along on WillieB's engine today, I had already finished and cleaned the head so I went ahead and bolted it on and torqued it down properly.

I still have to adjust the valves and install the distributor drive, then set the starting timing.

I also have a little more to do on the front end, the gaskets I've been waiting for came in late this afternoon. Chances are I'll have it all buttoned up tomorrow and get it mounted in the engine stand. I had to use my steel valve cover, I glued a new cork gasket on the one he shipped with it and I could not get the screws to start, I also could not get a spare alloy cover I had in stock to work, so I dug out some new nuts and my clean unused steel valve cover and tried one of those expensive silicone gaskets just to see how it works. I'll let you know.....

Tomorrow in the stand, then we'll see if it will make some good noises. I'll video the start up and run in, although after the first minute or so it doesn't make for compelling video just to watch it run at 2K RPM as I break in the cam.  ;D

Buttoned up a few more things, set the valve clearances and closed up the front of the motor, then I installed the radiator and got the engine loaded into the stand and mostly wired up.

Took quite a bit of fiddling to get the yellow fan blade not to hit, also the water pump pulley hit the cam belt cover, so I had to add a spacer inside the pulley between it and the pump. Then everything finally cleared ok.

Just a few more bits to hook up. Add oil, water and gasoline, then I'll crank up oil pressure and see if it will make some good noises.

I also need to weld the 02 bung into the muffler, then move a few things around and clean up a bit so I can get it to the back door for the exhaust to go out....

I have an exhaust hose but I don't think it's big enough to fit over the chrome end on the muffler - if I can get that sorted I can run with the back door mostly closed when it's really cold out.

Looking good Dave.

Maybe install a dryer vent flap in the wall and connect the exhaust hose to it when needed.

Or.....build my damn shop so I can put a proper exhaust vent in the wall?  77.gif

Alrighty then, cranked up oil pressure with no problem. All I need to do now is run down to the gas station and pick up some petrol.



Oh. I still need to weld in the O2 bung.....forgot about that.

It will run this afternoon for sure, then I can let it sit overnight and tomorrow retorque the head and reset the valve lash, then run it some more just for final checks.

Then if I can get it all loaded up again maybe they can come get it Friday......it should be home by Xmas!

Sounds like the starter really spins it over with no plugs. Looking forward to hearing it make the RIGHT kind of noises.

Quote from: MiniDave on December 08, 2020, 06:57:02 PM
Or.....build my damn shop so I can put a proper exhaust vent in the wall?  77.gif

Well as the wifey said you are failing at retirement there should be no objections LOL.

Quote from: MiniDave on December 09, 2020, 11:09:26 AM
Alrighty then, cranked up oil pressure with no problem. All I need to do now is run down to the gas station and pick up some petrol.

Oh. I still need to weld in the O2 bung.....forgot about that.

It will run this afternoon for sure, then I can let it sit overnight and tomorrow retorque the head and reset the valve lash, then run it some more just for final checks.

Then if I can get it all loaded up again maybe they can come get it Friday......it should be home by Xmas!

Quote from: MiniDave on December 08, 2020, 06:57:02 PM
Or.....build my damn shop so I can put a proper exhaust vent in the wall?  77.gif

That's a solid oil pressure reading for just spinning over.

I have some different springs I can try if it's too high, but we'll see once it's running.....if it stays under 80 I'll probably leave it alone. I can also get more new springs from Vicky Brits (this one is new, along with the plunger) as I've found they vary considerably.

My green car was running really low pressure, a new spring and plunger and now it runs right where it should. It wasn't stuck, I think the spring just got weak somehow.

I filled the oil filter before I cranked it up so it didn't take a lot of cranking to get pressure - this was the second spin up.

It's alive!!!!!

At least it was.....I think my fuel pump quit on me.....again. It was an old pump that used to fail on the car I ran it on too, usually you could tap on it and it would start up again. This time - nope.



Next time I'll turn the camera sideways too - I hate when people post videos like this!   ;D

It sounds great.  Got that new engine smell too I'm sure.

Oh yeah, smoked a bit for sure.....that silicone gasket didn't seal and leaked too - I went back with a cork one....at least I know those work.

Don't know why it quit yet, I'm going to retorque the head and adjust the valve lash then I'll fire it up again in the morning.

Odd about the silicone tappet cover gasket. I have had one on mine for a couple of years and it has never leaked. Had it off and on several times as well. I only tried it because I could never get the cork ones to seal worth a darn.

Yeah, I tightened it down twice and it still looked like it was weeping in several places. I replaced it with WillieB's aluminum cover with a cork gasket and ran it today - no leaks.

So, today was the break in run, Dan suggested I should use curve #7 on the CSI distributor, so I set it there - could not be easier - turn the key on and count the blinks. It was set at three....you need a tiny little screwdriver to change the setting, I turned it 4 clicks then checked it again - 7 is the lucky number!

It fired right up and after I adjusted the carb needle a bit it settled down nicely - it's not as smooth as I'd like free running like this, but then I have no idea what needle is in the carb right now - I should probably check that!  ::)
I use this same carb on all the engines I run in the stand, 998's to 1410's....so it won't be right for all of them, just something to let me run in the cam.

I let it run for 20 min at 2K RPM as that's what the cam maker recommends - the temp stayed right at 165-170. I'm running an old radiator off my '89 Racing Green in the test stand so sometimes it runs a little hotter than if it had an aluminum, so I have an extra electric fan outside the radiator if I need it - it's cold enough today that wasn't an issue.

Engine sounds sweet, although when you move the camera in close all these A series engines sound pretty thrashy...still it ran sweet. All that's left to do now is let it cool off then load it in the crate to go home on Monday.

Then it's up to WillieB, but I'll bet he'll take a little time off the Moke project to get it back in his car. I'm anxious to hear how it does once it's back in the car.

Film in a bit after it uploads to You Tube. It's pretty boring so I cut it short.....

Sounds great, Brad must be excited.  And fyi to Brad curve 7 is similar to what you had which was curve 3. Both similar to the Aldon yellow, 3 being a little less advance than 7. Dave set 8 as base timing which would have made 3 on the retarded side at full in being 28 degrees.  Curve 7 with 8 degrees as base gives you all in of 30 degrees.  Safe and will come on quickly and still give you about all you're going to get power wise.

This afternoon I pulled the motor out of the stand and loaded it into the crate. Got it all buttoned up and ready to ship out on Monday. I'll have to get up early then, I not only need to move the green car but also my little trailer and the blue MINI so he can get it out of the shop.

I'll also need to write up as set of instructions, notes, specs and so on that I used - for WillieB's records. It took a little longer than I hoped, between getting the Inno up and running and all the other projects I'm finishing up but at least it will be home for Xmas!  77.gif

Now I'll get back on the white car.....but first I have to split this 998 transmission off the engine so I can crate it up and ship it off to be rebuilt.

Jan 5th is coming up fast....

Nice job!  And, nice shop set-up. I like the engine stand!

Thanks!

Yesterday afternoon the truck came and picked it up, so it's on its way home to WillieB.

I hope he gets a chance to video some of it driving so we can hear how it runs and such....

The YRC truck driver is the same one that's made 4 trips out here now - we're on a first name basis!

Sounds sweet.
Nice to work on a Mini engine with nothing in the way.

Definitely easier in some ways - but of course in hindsight I know I could have designed it better.

Great job Dave! Know WillieB will be happy with the build.

Thanks Garry, I'm eager to hear how it runs in the car too, but it may be a bit before he gets it up and going.....

I picked it up from the trucking terminal today. I have some things to do the the mini before it goes back in. I was having a problem with the clutch not dis-engaging all the way before Dave got it. He found that the pivot shaft area on the clutch cover wok was very loose. So I will either replace the cover of turn down a bronze bushing to take out the slack.

Good looking garage you got there! 

Mini is going to have to wait a bit longer. I have been bouncing between the mini and the moke. Noticed yesterday when going thru paperwork on the moke that it's build date was Jan. 18 1966. So I am full time on the moke to try to have it running  by Jan 18. Seems like the right thing to do to have it going again by it's birthday.

Needed to re-grease the inner part of the pot joint that I split when pulling the engine. Decided to try a flavor injector, from Walmart. The end comes off so it's easy to fill straight from the tube. Holds about 4 ounces so just the right amount. It is little challenging as the needle has two opening opposite each other.

So that worked pretty well?  There's been a couple times I could have saved myself a lot of time and headaches by injecting grease rather than having to pull everything back apart.

Quote from: 94touring on March 05, 2021, 11:16:05 AM
So that worked pretty well?  There's been a couple times I could have saved myself a lot of time and headaches by injecting grease rather than having to pull everything back apart.

It worked good. I think for next time I am going to cut the end of the needle off so it just has the one hole on the end. Really don't need the pointed end and two holes on the sides.

You do what you have to when trying get the engine mount holes to line up.

Those things are a bugger.  I've had poor luck with the pre threaded engine mounts. 

I don't understand why people have so much trouble with those, I rock the motor around a bit till I can get a tapered drift in one hole, then put a bolt in the other. Then once that's in the other one screws right in easy peasy.....I like the ones with the threaded inserts for the radiator end, the other one isn't a problem either way.....however, I have had the threaded ones spin on me and had to use a longer bolt and a nut so now I just use the regular ones.

Exciting to see you have it in the car tho, can't wait for the video when you fire it up!

You need to get some miles on it before you start flogging it on those back roads in Texas.   77.gif

I've had them strip, spin, and not be aligned by a lot.  I think we struggled bad on Mark's car too.  Maybe he can chime in.

Quote from: MiniDave on March 06, 2021, 07:58:13 AM
I don't understand why people have so much trouble with those, I rock the motor around a bit till I can get a tapered drift in one hole, then put a bolt in the other.

I could rock it and get the holes lined up. But when I let go it moved. So the strap is just to hold while getting the bolt in.

Yep, had one pop off, which was a blessing cause then we just put a nut on it.  The other side one spun so we had to smack it around until it wedged itself and tightened up.  I'm with Dan, it's not that hard to get a nut on any of them, especially if you are putting in or pulling one out cause all the in the way stuff is out of the way.

It's way easier to shove a bolt through a whole then work a nut on as opposed to trying to get the threads aligned with a hole to get a bolt to thread. 

Any day now we should hear a YeeHaw! from Liburn Ga!   71.gif

Got it started for a few seconds yesterday. Would not stay running any longer. Suspect the rebuilt carb I have is not setup right. Time to learn something new. Or just put the old carb back on.

Old carb worked, right? I would def use it till you got the new one sorted.

I've seen some HIF's sold that were half of an MGB set - they don't work on a Mini, they were made to couple together and there are some fittings, electric gubbins and what have you that are always missing. I have a box full of them if you need a part of some sort.....

The only reason not to use your old carb is if the throttle shaft bushes are worn....otherwise, a service kit and a new needle and they're like new again.

Do you have #2 vented or capped?

Vented long hose to beneath engine.

Put the old carb on and it still did not want to start. Put a NEW set of plugs in and that made it happy enough to start. Let it idle while I checked the timing and look for anything leaking. All looks good, as expected. Got a rattle or two to chase down. One I think is the rad shroud.  4.gif

Out for a short drive to the gas station today. Stumbles bad from a stop till the revs are up. Need to lower the idle and tune on the carb some. Had to change the plug wires to fix an erratic idle. Runs good when running except for the off idle stumble.

Also need to raise the front. New cones dropped 1/2" just in a few miles. At least I have the old style RipSpeed Hi-Lo's so I can adjust them from above with a long allen wrench.

My difficulty with the clutch not completely disengaging making it hard to get into first seems to gone. Shifts great now. Of course I have not had it above second yet. Brakes a little squishy so another bleed soon too. Then drive, drive, drive to be ready for the Hill Country.

You have a BCE needle in there?  Really need that wideband or dyno tune.

Put a bung in so I can use my wideband now. Also have a Gunson's gastester to play around with.

Perfect.  Let us know what you find.

BCE is completely useless. I would say BDL at a minimum, maybe even a BDK.

Quote from: LarryLebel on April 01, 2021, 05:10:46 PM
BCE is completely useless. I would say BDL at a minimum, maybe even a BDK.

All 3 of those are close.  BCE is slightly richer down low and more matched to his cam per Keith Calvert. 

For reference. Should be around one of these.  Wideband will make it easy to decide.

Adjusted the carb using the Gastester. Set the Co at 3%. Next is put the wideband in. Scheduled for an alignment Thursday. The only problem I have now is lack of traction mostly in first gear...... Damn this thing pulls hard and I don't even have the carb dialed in good yet.

Quote from: Willie_B on April 12, 2021, 08:15:18 AM
Adjusted the carb using the Gastester. Set the Co at 3%. Next is put the wideband in. Scheduled for an alignment Thursday. The only problem I have now is lack of traction mostly in first gear...... Damn this thing pulls hard and I don't even have the carb dialed in good yet.

Sounds about right with traction given your build specs vs mine. Without my race tires I couldn't grab at all in 1st.

Too much HP? Damn, I guess I'll have to stop that....  71.gif

Time for stickier tires!

Brad, I have a dozen plugs headed your way! 

Thanks Dan.


Got the wideband installed. The readout is app based so easy to see while under the bonnet. Have not driven it yet but it seems to go rich (10-11) when opening the throttle. After a bit of stumbling it evens out to 14.5-15. So if I am thinking about this right the dashpot is going up too fast? If so, then check what spring is in it and maybe thicker oil?

Going for an alignment later today so will see what is doing while driving then.

It's not just a function of where the needle is, when you open the throttle the increased airflow over the jet draws more fuel too......even if the needle is not moving up quickly. But changing the oil and spring are the two easiest things to try, so I would go there first - one thing at a time tho.

You'll have to drive it under load to really know.  But, the faster the piston moves up the leaner it will be.  The slower the richer.  While cruising if you're lean and stumbling, you'll want more weight on the piston.  So either a heavier spring OR use some big washers to add weight.  If it's too rich in cruise you want less weight.  This is of course assuming the needle you have works perfectly at wide open throttle at around 12:5 to 13:1. For best power keep it between 12:1 and 13:1. Leaner than 13:1 at full throttle can cause detonation depending on other factors.  Lean stumble at cruise when initially giving it throttle means you need a thicker dashpot oil to slow the initial movement of the piston.  I found I get the most peppy feel at cruise with it dialed in around 13:5 to 14:1.  Best lean fuel economy will be upwards of 17:1 but I just didn't like how it felt.  You need vacuum advance to cruise that lean too or it will be a dog.

Ok, got some drive time in. Idle is at 12.5 to 13.5. Cruise is 16-17 range. Drops to very lean when accelerating. So I have a lean stumble. Just got the WinSU program too so lots to work with.

The vast majority of needles have the same idle value.  Changing to a richer needle should preserve the idle ratio while attempting to solve the too lean cruise and acceleration.

What Michael said.  Which needle do you have in there?  When you say lean when accelerating, do you mean a WOT pull or just at cruise when giving it a little extra throttle?

At cruise and accel, not to the floor but not very light on the pedal either.

Gotcha.  Once you get that cruise down in the 14s that acceleration lean stumble will probably go away.

Get any more tuning to report to us?

Swapped the carb needle to a BDL. That is the needle that the WinSU program suggested and I happened to have. It still was not quite rich enough, 16-17 in cruise,  so filed a bit off one side. Will see in the morning if it was a bit right or a bit too much.

Before I did that it did feel better and the stumble was much less but still 18-19 when getting on the gas. When it picked up enough to get down to the 14 range it really goes well then.

Do you know which needle stations to target?  You'll have 16 stations on your needles. 

I still have a few spare needles, but only one is for the .100 jet you apparently have.  It is a BER needle and is leaner than the BDL.

I have a few .090 jet needles.

I'll check my stash, but a BDL usually is appropriate - you do know how to raise and lower the jet to adjust the mixture, right?

His idle mixture setting is fine (12.5 - 13.5 AFR) per a previous post.  It is the cruise and WOT that are too lean.

Changing the jet level will also affect the idle mixture.  Changing the needle will permit keeping the idle "as-is" while making the cruise and WOT more rich.

That BDL needle is the leanest of the 3 that Calvert recommends on an equivalent engine build too.  Nothing a little shaving of the needle won't fix though.  I use a fine grit 600 sandpaper after filing to knock down any roughness on the needle.

BDL is slightly richer than BDK tho, right?

so should he be going to a BCE? I might have one of those too.....

According to my SU needle profiles booklet, BDK is actually just slightly richer than BDL from station 5 on up which would be mid cruise through WOT.

BCE is richer than either BDK or BDL and would likely be the better choice based on how lean the cruise and WOT AFR readings were (16-17 for cruise and 18-19 WOT).

I'll toss in my booklet with the stuff I am bringing to the Kerrville drives as a reference.  I will also have my Macbook along where I have a spreadsheet to chart some comparisons.

I think on the last page I have a screenshot from mintylamb comparing all 3 needles.  On my BCE needle I only needed to tweak stations 10 and up for WOT pulls to redline.  The cruise air fuel was perfect with a heavier spring. 

AF numbers look better on today's drive. Idle 13.5 and cruise 14.5 to 16 with just a tiny stumble if I get hard on the gas. Tomorrow I head to the the mountains for 240 or so miles. Looking for a high of 58 so a great day for it.

Sounds like just a little more filing and you have it.

Quote from: Willie_B on April 20, 2021, 04:27:10 PM
AF numbers look better on today's drive. Idle 13.5 and cruise 14.5 to 16 with just a tiny stumble if I get hard on the gas. Tomorrow I head to the the mountains for 240 or so miles. Looking for a high of 58 so a great day for it.

Hearing any "rattles" or other untoward noises? Water temp holding OK?

Where did you set the timing? at what RPM?

Clutch working well now? did you  wind up using a different Wok or fix that one?

How many miles have you done now? another 250 and it should be ready for an oil change before you haul it to Tejasss

No rattles, now that I know what to listen for. Set the timing to what you recommend. Clutch is perfect, got a new wok took the easy way out. Sould be ready for an oil change before Texas for sure.

What air fuel numbers are you seeing on full throttle to redline or have you driven it that hard yet?

Still putting in break-in miles on it. I will probably push it bit in the mountains today so will know more later.

Feedback from todays 225 mile drive. Freeway back and forth to the mountain fun roads. When completely warmed up idle is 12.5-13, cruise 45-75mph is 14.5-15, WOT 12.5-13. Not bad for just filing down one side of the needle. When it cools I will pull a plug to see how it looks.

The handling is a bit twitchy on turn-in. The back feels like it wants to step out a little. Could a 1/2 degree in front caster have that much difference? I asked for 4 degrees and they set it to 4.5.

in a word, yes.....what are your camber settings?

Why so much caster? makes for hard steering esp at low speeds.

In front I use 1/2 degree neg camber, 3 degrees caster and a tiny bit of tow out

in the rear I use 1/2 degree camber and a tiny bit of toe in

did they get the cross camber even?

Your air fuel is spot on, nicely done. 

My alignment is negative 1 degree camber in the front, negative half a degree camber in the rear, front toe out 1/8 inch, rear should be positive about a 1/16 as is.  I use stock caster.

The numbers I have used for years are
FRONT
toe           1/16" out
camber     -1 degree
castor       4 degrees

REAR
toe        1/16" in
camber  -1 degree

So I should try caster at 3 degrees then?

Double check your toe on the front too.  Toe in will make it act squirley.

Oh I assume your on throttle stumble went away?

Yes it did. I may try to tune it more later but I am happy with it now.

Yeah I'd say you're set! 

Back at the alignment shop. Even though it was set they say the rear toe is out. So reset that and I asked for the caster to be set at 3.

Update with numbers. When they put the mini back on the rack the rear was .3 toe out on the left and .3 toe in on the right. They set the caster at 3.5.

Rear toe will def make it squirrely in the back. I hope that straightens it out..... 77.gif

Really glad to see you getting some miles on the engine.....

Did your list of things needed at500 miles yesterday. Easy and done. Everything looked good. No leaks or issues.

Very happy to hear that!   77.gif

Now if I can just get my own car to run!  ::) 8.gif